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Post by hankinsfly on Jan 2, 2019 19:04:03 GMT -6
I’m cool with it. Let’s push this a bit further: what’s proper river etiquette for when one must relieve him or herself? I say woods, out of sight.
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Post by turfdawg on Jan 2, 2019 19:28:35 GMT -6
Faded red button on a fur coat here but I still prefer to hit the trees. Since my wife works for the Sherriff I really don't want to go see her coworker that registers sex offenders because someone under 18 saw me making water. I think I might be offended! Hey Golfer Jeff, is there a certain reason you take out your hearing aids when I go fishing with you? ?
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Post by golferjeff on Jan 2, 2019 19:46:29 GMT -6
Faded red button on a fur coat here but I still prefer to hit the trees. Since my wife works for the Sherriff I really don't want to go see her coworker that registers sex offenders because someone under 18 saw me making water. I think I might be offended! Hey Golfer Jeff, is there a certain reason you take out your hearing aids when I go fishing with you? ? I take them out for everyone. Too damn expensive to lose or get wet. Bill, for you I would just as soon cut my ears off Out of sight, ok to pee. Out of sight and downwind, OK to #2.
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Post by Nobytes on Jan 3, 2019 11:28:05 GMT -6
Nobytes I think you hit on this. The problem with “etiquette” is that it’s subjective. What might be considered good etiquette to one angler could be considered rude by another angler. Etiquette is also subjective to the body of water that you’re fishing or even the conditions on that river. For example, in SW Colorado, if you even try to fish the same access as someone that’s already there, you run the risk of getting your tires slashed. Obviously that’s not the case in broken bow. In broken bow, the question is more about how much room should I give the angler adjacent to me? That’s where etiquette is up for interpretation. What seems like plenty of room to me might not be enough room to you or vice versa. You also have to keep in mind what part of the river you’re on, what technique or style of fishing those around you are doing (if the guy above me is swinging wets I want to give him more room on his downstream side than if he’s fishing nymphs upstream so we aren’t crossing lines), and even how crowded the river is that particular day. All that being said, I used to get really frustrated with other people and even took a year off fishing in broken bow because of how many people that fish there and how many people there are that are rude. I finally had to learn to accept some things about fishing broken bow, like that I’m never gonna have the river to myself and if I want absolute solitude, it might be better to go somewhere else, although there are some spots in broken bow that you can get to and have a bit more privacy. I do agree, that crowding creates some less-than-ideal conditions on the tailwater, and that a certain amount of forbearance is reasonable as a result. But I do not think, that popularity means that bad manners and behavior must be tolerated. On the contrary, crowding increases the need to be considerate of others, it does not decrease it. It does however, mean that compromise with the situation (rather than any single angler) is needed by all. If there 5 people in Evening hole, obviously there's a lot more room to spread out, and subsequently, the rudeness of intruding on another anglers space is far more egregious. But when EH is crammed, then the amount of space any one angler can reasonably "stake out" has to be reduced to acommodate the crowd. Sadly, crowds also ensure that the statistical likelihood of running into a jackass is far higher. All that being said, I used to get really frustrated with other people and even took a year off fishing in broken bow because of how many people that fish there and how many people there are that are rude. Professionally, I work in local Government, and so tend to look at towns and so forth through that lens. In the 15 or so times I've come to the LMFR, I can't help but notice the significant amounts of cash being invested in the Hochatown area right now. The earth work going on at the "strip mall" area north of the bank is a good example. Evidently, developers see Hochatown as a tourist growth area, and are preparing to serve the crowds the area attracts with Tchotchkes, junk food, booze, and other tourist oriented fare. I think this no surprise, given the increasing crowds in the summer time, and obvious policy changes that appear to be happening with Park management, wherein fly fishermen are likely to be seen as a small niche part of the larger crowd of families seeking a place to have fun. I'd complain and grump about a situation I see as likely to push fly fishermen elsewhere, but lets face it - Oklahoma needs the cash, and there's nothing like developers wanting to dump millions into a local economy to deafen the ears of locals wanting to improve their own standard of living. So while I may bemoan the LMFR slowly transforming into an amusement park increasingly inhospitable to our favorite sport, I also understand that mine may not be the more important need.
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Post by dainw on Jan 3, 2019 13:16:04 GMT -6
Nobytes I think you hit on this. The problem with “etiquette” is that it’s subjective. What might be considered good etiquette to one angler could be considered rude by another angler. Etiquette is also subjective to the body of water that you’re fishing or even the conditions on that river. For example, in SW Colorado, if you even try to fish the same access as someone that’s already there, you run the risk of getting your tires slashed. Obviously that’s not the case in broken bow. In broken bow, the question is more about how much room should I give the angler adjacent to me? That’s where etiquette is up for interpretation. What seems like plenty of room to me might not be enough room to you or vice versa. You also have to keep in mind what part of the river you’re on, what technique or style of fishing those around you are doing (if the guy above me is swinging wets I want to give him more room on his downstream side than if he’s fishing nymphs upstream so we aren’t crossing lines), and even how crowded the river is that particular day. All that being said, I used to get really frustrated with other people and even took a year off fishing in broken bow because of how many people that fish there and how many people there are that are rude. I finally had to learn to accept some things about fishing broken bow, like that I’m never gonna have the river to myself and if I want absolute solitude, it might be better to go somewhere else, although there are some spots in broken bow that you can get to and have a bit more privacy. I do agree, that crowding creates some less-than-ideal conditions on the tailwater, and that a certain amount of forbearance is reasonable as a result. But I do not think, that popularity means that bad manners and behavior must be tolerated. On the contrary, crowding increases the need to be considerate of others, it does not decrease it. It does however, mean that compromise with the situation (rather than any single angler) is needed by all. If there 5 people in Evening hole, obviously there's a lot more room to spread out, and subsequently, the rudeness of intruding on another anglers space is far more egregious. But when EH is crammed, then the amount of space any one angler can reasonably "stake out" has to be reduced to acommodate the crowd. Sadly, crowds also ensure that the statistical likelihood of running into a jackass is far higher. All that being said, I used to get really frustrated with other people and even took a year off fishing in broken bow because of how many people that fish there and how many people there are that are rude. Professionally, I work in local Government, and so tend to look at towns and so forth through that lens. In the 15 or so times I've come to the LMFR, I can't help but notice the significant amounts of cash being invested in the Hochatown area right now. The earth work going on at the "strip mall" area north of the bank is a good example. Evidently, developers see Hochatown as a tourist growth area, and are preparing to serve the crowds the area attracts with Tchotchkes, junk food, booze, and other tourist oriented fare. I think this no surprise, given the increasing crowds in the summer time, and obvious policy changes that appear to be happening with Park management, wherein fly fishermen are likely to be seen as a small niche part of the larger crowd of families seeking a place to have fun. I'd complain and grump about a situation I see as likely to push fly fishermen elsewhere, but lets face it - Oklahoma needs the cash, and there's nothing like developers wanting to dump millions into a local economy to deafen the ears of locals wanting to improve their own standard of living. So while I may bemoan the LMFR slowly transforming into an amusement park increasingly inhospitable to our favorite sport, I also understand that mine may not be the more important need. I really just want to reply to the last portion of your comment but I’m on my cell phone and im not that great with this type of thing anyway. So consider this my response to the growth in broken bow portion of your post. I agree with most everything you said in the part above. Anyway, as far as the growth in broken bow goes, it’s crazy how much that town has grown, even in the year and half or so since I was there last to two weeks ago when I made my first trip back. Speaking with the locals, they even feel like some of the growth is unsustainable, but that’s neither here nor there. You can also bet with a casino going in, that the tourist traffic is only going to get worse. My question is, and I’d like to pose this question to the group...is all of this growth truly bad for the fly fishing community? I think on the surface, the easy answer is yes, because I think we’d all like more solitude and serenity when we go out. But if the all of the growth is bad, then why do so many “fly fishermen” (whatever it takes to earn that moniker) continue to flock to broken bow and fish the LMF in record numbers? One of the things I noticed on my last couple trips is that there seems to be a higher proportionate number of fly fishermen to conventional fisnhermen than there has been in the past. The fly shop is as busy as they’ve ever been booking trips, and this board sees more activity with new signups than we’ve seen in the past. Granted this is all anecdotal evidence and may not be accurate at all, but my point is, there is, no shortage of fly fishermen at broken bow. So the question in my mind is, with all the changes that seemingly make the fly fishing experience worse and would seem likely to push fly fishermen away, why do we still continue to see so many fly fishermen at broken bow, if not steady growth in the number of people that go there to fly fish? While I think that those on this board like to consider themselves the voice of the fly fishing community so to speak (myself included), and that what we think is good for the river is what everyone who has ever stood in the pristine waters of the LMFR waving a fly rod around thinks is good for the fly fishing. I think the truth is, the fly fishing community is much larger than we think and consists of more than just the 20-25 hardcore regulars that frequent this board. I think if people truly didn’t feel like what was going on at broken bow, be it with the regs, the enforcement, the crowds or whatever, that we would see less people showing up everyday to fish and not more.
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Post by turfdawg on Jan 3, 2019 14:03:57 GMT -6
A person like myself doesn't have much of a option. I don't have the time and financial resources to just up and go to other destinations. There are more and more people getting into the sport and Broken Bow is 3hrs away for about 9 million people [total guess on numbers] to go fish for trout in a stream with a fly rod. I don't particularly like how crowded it is but i'll just keep showing up and cannot blame anyone that does
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Post by todd13 on Jan 7, 2019 18:24:02 GMT -6
I can’t believe I am going to add to this (I told myself I wouldn’t). Dain - good question, “is the growth and traffic good for FF?” I say it is. I hate the congestion and do enjoy the serenity. For me, as a teacher, being on the river with some of you and folks calling “peanut butter jelly time” is serene. I know for some, that’s over the top, thus serenity is relative. The increased volume does two things for me: first, I have to get better at everything. Better at seeing fish, better at planning, better at my presentations, and better at fishing varied water. So yeah, I hate more folks, but I’m getting better b/c of it. Second, I am exploring warm water FF with more vigor. Heck I even travelled to MO with some fella chasing SMB whom I barely knew. It was a fun trip and I fished new water. I don’t think that fella even caught a SMB, but what the heck - it was a new fishery! Along those lines, I am probably going to a different fishery (same drive time Bill) this weekend just to explore and fish. I may get skunked, but I will be challenged. So yeah, I don’t like the increased volume, but it makes me better. Kinda like that castor oil and Vick’s vapor rub I imagine. “Peanut Butter Jelly Time”
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Post by texanfisherman on Jan 8, 2019 9:27:49 GMT -6
If it gets bad I'll just stop going there. The cost and time involved with grabbing a quick flight to Taos, Santa Fe, Colorado Springs, or Denver isn't that much more and would result in a far superior fishing experience. I bet they don't shut down the Cimmarron or the South Platte for a controlled hunt on a whim on a holiday weekend without advertising ahead of time. I think this last trip was almost the final straw for me.
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Post by FlyAndStream on Jan 8, 2019 10:08:41 GMT -6
texanfisherman the controlled hunt was a surprise for me as well. I left the house at 5am drove 3 hours only to come to the barricades, but it forced me to break out of my narrow routine and tightline Spillway Creek instead, which I ended up really enjoying. There's actually a lot of fishable water when we think about it, I could've just as easily spent the day exploring Z2 more, maybe even work down to upper part of Z3.
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Post by texanfisherman on Jan 8, 2019 10:24:59 GMT -6
texanfisherman the controlled hunt was a surprise for me as well. I left the house at 5am drove 3 hours only to come to the barricades, but it forced me to break out of my narrow routine and tightline Spillway Creek instead, which I ended up really enjoying. There's actually a lot of fishable water when we think about it, I could've just as easily spent the day exploring Z2 more, maybe even work down to upper part of Z3. I couldn't do Z2 because they were running water. I drove to two roads, saw the barricades, and decided it wasn't worth my time to drive around the area all morning looking for a non-barricaded area. So, I just parked myself below swim beach for a few hours, caught about 15 fish, and then headed back home.
I ran out of 4x and 5x tippet the day before and I thought "hey, no problem, I can just pick some up at the fly shop tomorrow morning." NOPE.
I just ordered some from Amazon.
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Post by dainw on Jan 8, 2019 11:38:02 GMT -6
If it gets bad I'll just stop going there. The cost and time involved with grabbing a quick flight to Taos, Santa Fe, Colorado Springs, or Denver isn't that much more and would result in a far superior fishing experience. I bet they don't shut down the Cimmarron or the South Platte for a controlled hunt on a whim on a holiday weekend without advertising ahead of time. I think this last trip was almost the final straw for me. I mean, understand that you’re upset about the park being closed. I wouldn’t be happy about that either. For what it’s worth, the hunt was posted on the ODWC’s website: www.wildlifedepartment.com/controlledhunts/selectionsI’m not sure you can necessarily call that “on a whim.” I don’t know what the best means of notification would’ve been or what everyone was expecting. I mean did everyone expect the ODWC to email them personally and let them know the river was closed that weekend? I’m honestly surprised that the foundation didn’t put out a memo and that the first any of us knew about it was that day, but such is life. All that aside, your comment gets to the heart of why I gave broken bow a break for an extended period in favor of other fisheries. What I finally had to realize though is that broken bow is a trout fishery in Oklahoma for pete’s sake. It’s not the south platte, or the frying pan, or the cimarron. Heck it’s not even the white river. This isn’t a river in the Rockies where fly fishermen are the target audience and regulations are set up to ensure better fly fishing. This is a state park in Oklahoma that sees something like 1.1 million visitors every year, of which a very small portion of those visitors come to the park specifically to fly fish. So when it comes to things like regulations, and park events, and things like that, the powers that be have to do their best to keep everyone happy, which just isn’t always going to be possible. If you got the means and the time to go hit Colorado/New Mexico just as often as you do broken bow, then go for it. Wish I could say the same, but I’m not able to head west more than once or twice a year, and I need to fish more than that. I think broken bow, in spite of all the complaints, is still a pretty damn good place to fish. It certainly “scratches the itch” when I need it to. I think we all lose track of the fact this fishery, of all places, is in SE Oklahoma. That in and of itself is pretty remarkable.
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Post by golferjeff on Jan 8, 2019 13:57:38 GMT -6
TexanFisherman - The controlled hunt was noted on Facebook, ODWC website, and park office. I don't think it was a holiday weekend either. But yes, they could have been more proactive about letting people know about it. I had heard about it but neglected to put it on this board. I know it hurt for anglers, but think about the lost revenue for cabins and the fly shop. And as Aaron pointed out, there was still alot of water to fish - Z3 was open till the water arrived and SPillway is fishing good right now. I mostly agree with Dain - LMF is a place to scratch an itch for Trout. It's easy to get to for most of North Texas, OK, and LA folks. I wouldn't necessarily plan a long trip there, and that's what NM, CO, UT, and Canada are for me. I don't go to Beavers Bend looking for solitude, wild fish, or river etiquette. I go for buddy trips, hanging with my dog, and day trip getaways. YOu can't get to Colorado and back in day unfortunately. I may have to take Dain and a few others to CO this summer.....
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Post by texanfisherman on Jan 9, 2019 7:59:29 GMT -6
I mean, understand that you’re upset about the park being closed. I wouldn’t be happy about that either. For what it’s worth, the hunt was posted on the ODWC’s website: www.wildlifedepartment.com/controlledhunts/selectionsI’m not sure you can necessarily call that “on a whim.” I don’t know what the best means of notification would’ve been or what everyone was expecting. I mean did everyone expect the ODWC to email them personally and let them know the river was closed that weekend? I’m honestly surprised that the foundation didn’t put out a memo and that the first any of us knew about it was that day, but such is life. Well I'll certainly start checking the Controlled Hunt webpage every time I go fishing somewhere. Would I like ODWC to email regarding things like this? Yes, absolutely. They have a mass email system to all license holders. I get random emails from them all the time about things like "kid trout fishing in Tulsa" or "special seminar happening in OKC next week" or "pink and orange deer spotted in Guymon". Why not use that for something useful? Also, (and I really hate being like this) I'm VERY surprised that there wasn't an announcement on this very board. If the fly shop was going to be forced closed... Once again, I hate complaining about THAT because we do indeed get a free place to post and share stories here.
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Post by ranger1965 on Jan 9, 2019 8:09:54 GMT -6
I wouldn't assume the fly shop was aware of it. I'm pretty sure they were blindsided by it just like the rest of us. For most of us it was just an inconvenience as there were other places to fish, for them it was real $$$.
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Post by breeden3 on Jan 9, 2019 8:50:12 GMT -6
Texanfisherman, you can't be serious right now. The Fly Shop staff found out about the hunt on Thursday afternoon with the hunt starting Friday. You need to get out of here with that crap. Quit trying to blame everyone else for you not knowing about the controlled hunt. I REALLY hate being like this but you hop on a page that is sponsored by the Shop, that you can post for free, and you try to blame the shop for not letting you know. It is not our obligation anyways. And yes if we had known, we would have posted. If you really have a problem, complain to ODWC. But I would suggest watching who you complain about before you piss the wrong people off.
Also, if you really think Denver, CO Springs, Cimarron, or Santa Fe is a far superior fishing experience, especially in the Winter, go ahead and go lol.
Peter
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Post by hankinsfly on Jan 9, 2019 10:10:22 GMT -6
I’ve had a lifetime Oklahoma hunting/fishing license since I was 16, never received an email from ODWC. With fishing and hunting regulations, it is your responsibility to know the regulations of anywhere you fish, not the Department’s job to call you up and tell you. I would expect the same of a circumstance like this. The park and the ODWC is not going to email anybody/everybody who potentially might visit the park that weekend and tell them about a controlled hunt. That could be what, half a million people? Some visitors probably don’t even use email or read message board posts. So you missed out on a weekend of fishing. Get over it!
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Post by texanfisherman on Jan 9, 2019 15:17:02 GMT -6
Texanfisherman, you can't be serious right now. The Fly Shop staff found out about the hunt on Thursday afternoon with the hunt starting Friday. You need to get out of here with that crap. Quit trying to blame everyone else for you not knowing about the controlled hunt. I REALLY hate being like this but you hop on a page that is sponsored by the Shop, that you can post for free, and you try to blame the shop for not letting you know. It is not our obligation anyways. And yes if we had known, we would have posted. If you really have a problem, complain to ODWC. But I would suggest watching who you complain about before you piss the wrong people off. Also, if you really think Denver, CO Springs, Cimarron, or Santa Fe is a far superior fishing experience, especially in the Winter, go ahead and go lol. Peter Calm down man. I did acknowledge that they give us a free place to post. Please quote where I specifically blamed the fly shop. I specifically said "I'm VERY surprised that there wasn't an announcement on this very board. If the fly shop was going to be forced closed... " I wanted to give them business. And guess what...apparently they didn't know either! This goes on the ODWC. I find it REALLY messed up that the fly shop didn't even know before Thursday afternoon. As mentioned earlier by someone else, that cost them real money. So I suggest that you calm down and see why I'm angry and who I'm angry at. It's not the fly shop owners and it's not you or whoever else I argue with on here. This is just banter.
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Post by texanfisherman on Jan 9, 2019 15:35:28 GMT -6
I’ve had a lifetime Oklahoma hunting/fishing license since I was 16, never received an email from ODWC. Weird, they send a very large number of what should I call them.... less than useful announcements. A check through my deleted items turns up 6 since the new year. Maybe they could use that easily utilized tool to attempt to notify people of things like that. :shrug: With fishing and hunting regulations, it is your responsibility to know the regulations of anywhere you fish, So this would have told me the park would be closed? www.wildlifedepartment.com/law/guides?qt-guides=1#qt-guidesThe park and the ODWC is not going to email anybody/everybody who potentially might visit the park that weekend and tell them about a controlled hunt. That could be what, half a million people? Some visitors probably don’t even use email or read message board posts. Did I ever say that I expected a personal call? A broad dissemination of information would have been nice. In the future, I'll start calling the park offices to ask if anything abnormal is going on. So you missed out on a weekend of fishing. Get over it! I can't be miffed that I burned a day of vacation and about $100 in gas? I did fish some, and I did catch fish, so that was good. I guess my disappointment is that I see these multiple broadcast emails go out and it would have been so easy to announce a closure such as this.
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Post by cowboysnfishin on Jan 9, 2019 16:52:46 GMT -6
I understand what Breeden and hankinsfly are saying but nowhere did texanfisherman state that the fly shop was responsible for notifying people of the closure. Personally, i was irritated because i booked a cabin with the park last weekend and didn't receive a notification from the administrative staff of the park itself, not the ODWC; i didn't expect to be given notice by the ODWC. As far as people that were just visiting the park and not staying there, i'm not sure how notifying them would've been possible. As i said, i was frustrated that park staff didn't notify me as i was staying there. I see it in a similar way as if you were going skiing/snowboarding at a ski resort - you don't travel there, check in and all that and then be notified that 85% of the slopes are closed...
That being said, park staff did work with me in refunding me most of my money. Obviously, the time and the day off work cannot be refunded but oh well, i'm over it now
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Post by danimal on Jan 9, 2019 18:34:20 GMT -6
On a brighter note, I arrived down there(strategically ) at high noon Sunday and had the day use riffle all to myself for about 3 hours. The fish were very agreeable after being unpressured all weekend. Caught a BUNCH on a caddis pupa and/or olive midge. Headed up to EH for about 30 minutes to finish the day and caught about a dozen more on the midge. Life gave lemons -- but the lemonade turned out really good!..
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Post by breeden3 on Jan 9, 2019 19:00:35 GMT -6
Texanfisherman, I would believe your explanation, except you said "I hate being like this" which shows that you felt the Fly Shop was somewhat responsible for not posting an announcement. And at the end again you say "I hate complaining about THAT" because you do get to post for free. I am not the only one who took it that way, several others have either posted here or reached out to me in agreement.
Your entire post would have been fine, but you decided to take your frustration out on the Shop for not posting an announcement. The entire reason you included the Shop in your post was specifically to complain about there not being an announcement.
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Smallfry
Riffle Club
Trophy Sunfish Hunter
Posts: 435
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Post by Smallfry on Jan 9, 2019 19:30:59 GMT -6
Sorry... Attachments:
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Post by schrederman on Jan 12, 2019 12:10:46 GMT -6
We had already sworn off of going to LMF after spring break. The commercial development of the strip from Broken Bow to Hochatown seems to be a harbinger of bad things to come. We have almost sworn off of LMF altogether, but our upcoming Arkansas trip has been knocked down by the threat of high water for the entire time, so we'll be up on the 20th for 4 days. We would just postpone but my son's vacation time is too inflexible. Hopefully the forecast cold weather will keep the winter crowds down. Being on the river with a lot of loud people is about like being in an RV site next to people that play their music outside... and loud. A little consideration for others goes a long way. As to the fly shop... The folks that are there are tops. They know the river and are helpful and friendly. They're the real deal. Some of the guides I've met are tops, too. It's sad that the development will... in my opinion... most likely ruin the fishery. If the park management would enforce their rules and signage the ruination might not happen, but my experiences show that's not going to happen.
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Post by jonbo on Jan 13, 2019 6:42:34 GMT -6
Going philosophical here: The trouble with, or downgrading of, the LMF in recent years, in terms of peacefulness, etc., that's really just a function of demographics, I think. All of our outdoors areas are less peaceful, less pristine than they were 50 years ago. The world and the country's a lot more crowded. There's just going to be a lot more people wanting to gamble (hence building casinos), to stay in hotels and do other touristy things, to camp in a state park, to kayak, to fly-fish, to jump off a bluff into a pool. And there's no more area to do all of that in then there ever was. So I'm going to continue to enjoy Beaver's Bend and my other fly-fishing destinations the best that I can for as long as I can.
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Post by slim on Jan 13, 2019 9:45:49 GMT -6
Very well expressed Jon.
And you’re right, we got to enjoy the outdoors 50 years ago when it wasn’t quite so crowded.
And from my experience lately, it’s different personal expectations are now expected in the outdoors experience than fifty years ago. Gratification to the maximum is expected.
For example 4.25 million people visited Yellowstone last year. Surely you have read the bazaar behavior of visitors that happens in Yellowstone ?
Maybe LMF is becoming proportionally more crowded and it’s small area more developed causing a loss of natural beauty, wildlife and the small towns I can remember.
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