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Post by dainw on Feb 5, 2019 13:39:20 GMT -6
So I was fishing at the bluffs Saturday and as I worked up stream, it looked like the run right under the cold hole bridge was wide open. Got excited and started to walk hurriedly to the spot only to crest the hill and notice a father daughter duo sitting on the rocks, fishing powerbait and keeping fish. At first I wanted to tell them that it was illegal to fish in this manner or just call the game warden on them. But then I had some second thoughts. Here is what went through my head, in order:
-Damn it this is a red zone and it’s says so right there. -Wait it doesn’t say what a redzone is, what if they don’t know? -Well doesn’t matter, if you’re gonna use this river that everyone’s tax dollars and license fees pay for, ignorance of the law is not a good excuse -If I call the warden or the park official or whomever, would anything even be done? -Guy was actually pretty nice and didn’t mind me fishing across from him -Looks like they are having a good time and he is enjoying time with his daughter and that’s what’s really important -can we really expect a redzone to be enforced in the cold hole? Seems like a tall ask bc it’s prime bait water. -dang that was big old kyped up rainbow he just flopped on the shore right there. Hurts to see.
Anyways, decided against doing anything and don’t want to start another out and out gripe session about enforcement on the river but just wanted to get everyone’s thoughts on this. That cold hole area is pretty inviting if you’re throwing power bait.
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Post by dannys on Feb 5, 2019 14:07:27 GMT -6
I often feel parents teach their kids to break the law when it benefits them. Prime examples--not stopping at a stop sign--kids in the car; shooting off fireworks in city limits where it is illegal, and the list goes on and on. Basically, teaching their kids that some laws are OK to break.
Now, how does that relate to your situation? I, like many hate to presume someone is blatantly fishing illegally (although many do and don't care--the attitude I mentioned above); so that brings me to your second bullet. Might have been fine to mention the fact to them and let the Dad decide what he wants to do. I've always believed the way the message is received is 90% determined by the approach to deliver the message. You might have felt bad if you had not mentioned the Red Zone rules and the guy got popped by a warden (especially if you heard Dad tell the warden he had no idea what "Red Zone."
All in all, definitely not worth getting into an ugly situation over it--puts everyone in a bad mood.
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Post by jesusandy on Feb 5, 2019 14:31:37 GMT -6
dainw I'll give this input into your moral dilemma. We should always try and follow the law, and, in my humble opinion, it is ok to point it out if someone is not obeying the law (or rules of the red zone in this case). I believe that I should point out to the person that it is a red zone, and what that means. If the person does not want to accept my efforts at educating them, I would walk away. I have delivered the message about the rules. Depending on what they do from that point on would dictate my next move (i.e call the game warden, go on about my business, etc.)
As Danny's stated, unfortunately we live in a culture and society where many simply don't care about the rules, or breaking them in this case.
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Post by turfdawg on Feb 5, 2019 15:34:40 GMT -6
Nice guy and his daughter in a place that they made the easiest to access, I’m not saying crap. I actually told a lady to take her kids there. I did tell her about it being a red zone but they don’t enforce it much. Sure enough park ranger came by and the only person that got in trouble was a dude that had way over his limit.
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Post by dainw on Feb 5, 2019 18:20:19 GMT -6
Nice guy and his daughter in a place that they made the easiest to access, I’m not saying crap. I actually told a lady to take her kids there. I did tell her about it being a red zone but they don’t enforce it much. Sure enough park ranger came by and the only person that got in trouble was a dude that had way over his limit. That’s kind of where I’m at with it. Not only do they make it easy to access, they put picnic tables there and there really isn’t any mention of what a redzone actually is, just that it is in fact, a redzone.
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Post by huntnfish2much on Feb 5, 2019 19:41:38 GMT -6
One of the last times I was lucky enough to get up to LMF, I was fishing in Zone ii (as usual) and came upon an older fellow (I'm 59, and he looked older than me).
He had several children with him, and they were fishing with bait.
After watching a young teenage girl break off in the middle of the stream, I walked over and politely explained that they were fishing in a red zone and what that meant. The fellow thanked me and said he had no idea about any of that.
People don't read the signs. Many of them don't care. Some of them do care, and they appreciate being kindly informed.
Do what's right. Let them deal with the information.
JR
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Post by Texastroutfisher on Feb 6, 2019 7:52:52 GMT -6
I believe it is a combination of both. There are those that know and simply don't care and there are those that really don't know. Couldn't the LMFRF work with the park officials / state to put up signs that clearly define the Red Zone regs? That area is not that big, if signs were put up at the EH bridge and the CH bridge and applicable parking areas it would be better than a sign that simply states its a Red Zone. Once the signs are in place the regs would be clear to everyone and the officials could enforce them better.
This is no different than size limits on deer / or bags limits in general. This area is designed to be a " trophy " area and give the fish a protected area to grow which benefits everyone. The area needs to be protected or they should simply re designate it as a Blue Zone.
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Post by golferjeff on Feb 6, 2019 8:42:00 GMT -6
There are signs all over the place, but most of them are ignored. In Dain's situation, I would probably say nothing. Dad and his girl fishing and enjoying themselves without impacting others is a soft spot for me. When I took my daughter up there when she was small, i did not crimp her barbs in EH, so I was a willing rulebreaker. I would have spoken up if 1) They had any Brown Trout or 2) I saw additional 'illegal' activity. Cold hole may be a red zone, but it is basically what it always was - a family area for easily accessible fishing fun. I would have been more likely to say something if that happened in EH or Zone 2.
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Post by FlyAndStream on Feb 6, 2019 8:59:33 GMT -6
Many folks fishing there just often don't even realize what the red zone is or means. Besides they look at the people to the left and right, and hey they're using bait and toting stringers too, so there's no real sense of doing something wrong. The sign pictured below is at the start of Zone 2 next to the old park dam. It seems it would be good to install one of these at the entrance from the parking area at cold hole, heck even EH parking lot area. Something more visual that provides regulation information as someone approaches the water to fish. If this were the case, not many folks would be able to claim ignorance of not knowing, and I would suspect more justification to enforce regs in the red zone areas. Arkansas and Missouri does this pretty well, but they also have many more year-round trout streams.
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Post by Texastroutfisher on Feb 6, 2019 9:29:25 GMT -6
That is exactly what I’m talking about Fly & Stream. Or, start the RZ where the CH necks down into the swift run before the bluffs and put the sign there. I agree, CH is a bait fishers dream and I would never want parent / child time to be interfered with especially in this case but by allowing that, there are those that will take advantage of it.
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Post by turfdawg on Feb 6, 2019 9:46:46 GMT -6
I’m not putting much faith in signs around that place. I remember several “Entry into water by anglers ONLY “ signs and come to find out they didn’t mean crap and I was stupid for telling people about it.
Dain, I do try to give Fly fishing a good name by letting kids catch fish on my rod and helping others set stuff up and giving them materials and flies and I know others do as well. It’s mainly the people not doing as they should that think we are goodie two shoes.
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Post by dainw on Feb 6, 2019 10:59:15 GMT -6
I’m not putting much faith in signs around that place. I remember several “Entry into water by anglers ONLY “ signs and come to find out they didn’t mean crap and I was stupid for telling people about it. Dain, I do try to give Fly fishing a good name by letting kids catch fish on my rod and helping others set stuff up and giving them materials and flies and I know others do as well. It’s mainly the people not doing as they should that think we are goodie two shoes. Bill I think you’re a great ambassador to the sport. My post on the other thread was directed at the keyboard warriors who want to bash people like SB online and get into arguments on Instagram and things like that. I think they make us look like the social justice warriors of the fishing world. As long as it’s legal, we shouldn’t be bashing anyone for how they fish, even if they’re a guide. I also think at some point, if there is going to any redrawing of the zones or changes in the regulations, we will need some people outside of the fly fishing community to be on board with it as well.
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Post by Aaron on Feb 6, 2019 15:27:09 GMT -6
dainw, well said. Can’t put it any better than that.
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Post by FlyAndStream on Feb 6, 2019 15:48:46 GMT -6
Not long ago the fly fishing community considered anyone who fished a weighted nymph to be anathema. Now some folks are running strictly mono, slapping split shot on, and fishing soft plastic 'flies' like the squirmy wormy. In the end, we may not be that different from the conventional tackle folks.
The regs on the other hand, though, I think we just want a standard we all follow while protecting the resource.
I had this same dilemma taking my son to fish Dry Run Creek in Arkansas – possibly the fishiest 3/4 mile in the country. The regs state no one 16 or over can fish unless legally handicap. It literally took everything in me to not touch my sons fly rod, all the while seeing dads helping their kids cast, hook-set, and fight large fish which are all technically illegal to do. I didn't have a problem with that unlike some other folks who brought their 5 and 7 year daughters, set them down with coloring books and used their barbie kids poles to fish themselves while regularly peaking over their shoulder.
There's always going to be those who are a little ignorant and those who just don't give a crap doing what they want anyways. IMO, the later are the ones who should be policed into tickets, and the former being educated along the way.
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Post by Fenwick on Feb 6, 2019 19:11:15 GMT -6
I was humbled when one rainy afternoon at the Evening Hole I came upon a late teen/early 20-something couple attired in old tattered cutoffs, worn out T-shirts and sneakers and toting a plastic bucket and some shoddy worse for wear $15 Walmart spinning outfits. Not exactly Orvis catalog models. Maybe it was because of the rain or gloomy life in general but they were not a happy lot, soaked through like that. They waded in a step or two off the bank and cast their lines. They didn't catch anything that I saw but in consideration of their overall um, gee, gotta choose my words carefully, economically downtrodden appearance it looked like they weren't there for fun but rather to catch their dinner or otherwise not eat that night. Did they have hungry kids at home? This struck me. I said nothing and hoped they did catch something hassle free that day. I counted my blessings too. Never saw them before or since either.
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Post by BTLowry on Feb 16, 2019 9:02:06 GMT -6
I try to follow the rules but have on occasion, either through ignorance or just simply not paying attention, found myself to be in violation.
I can guarantee that I would be appreciative of someone bringing my attention to the error of my ways other than the GW and a ticket
I think how you let someone know they are messing up has a lot to do with how well they take it
In the case of Cold Hole, I would give any bait fishermen the benefit of the doubt since it was legal for them before and now is not with little more than a license plate sized sign marking it
FlyAndStream the scenario you describe with dad using kid's pole while they color is where dad needs a fat fine and loss of hunting and fishing privileges for 5yrs to make an impression Very much like the 5yr old who kills a monster buck in youth season with a 7mag, everyone knows dad killed that buck
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