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Post by Eddie on Mar 24, 2019 12:56:54 GMT -6
All,
We were approached by Don Groom (ODWC) about suggestions for possible revisions and regulations in regards to the Lower Mountain Fork River within the Park. This is our opportunity to be heard and have our ideas debated where it will have an impact. We will gather all suggestions (as long as they are relevant) here and give it to the State for future regulation changes. Please feel free to express any and all ideas you have to help this fishery thrive. The State wants our input and are more than willing to listen and adjust. We will make a list out of this thread and present it to Mr. Groom in two weeks. I look forward to hearing your suggestions.
Example: Lowering the trout limit to 3-4 as opposed to 6. Then list your reasons...
Eddie
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Post by turfdawg on Mar 24, 2019 13:22:24 GMT -6
No Brown Trout harvested
Cold Hole area to where spillway hits LMF a Blue zone
Bluff area kid fishing only
From spillway to falls red zone ( however change verbiage to C&R)
3 rainbow limit and none over 20” harvested
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Post by Texastroutfisher on Mar 24, 2019 14:01:07 GMT -6
No Brown Trout Harvested. C&R only in entire park. Allow resource to grow and establish itself.
Cold Hole to where it begins to neck down and run towards the bluffs, Blue Zone. Cold Hole is better suited to bait fisherman and spin casting.
From Cold Hole neck down to Evening Hole bridge C&R only. Allow this to become a true trophy area.
Post signage in all access areas clearly stating regulations / size limits for applicable part of the river. Should help with enforcement and charging violators. Helps protect the resource.
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Post by lipripper1983 on Mar 25, 2019 0:10:42 GMT -6
No Brown Trout Harvested. Ample signage all over the park from spillway to powerhouse. (i.e no throwing rocks and debris, no swimming/kayaking, blue zone/red zone signage, fish species signage, spin cast/fly rod only signage.) Reduce number of rainbow trout kept to 2 fish per angler per day nothing over 20 inches. And more park authorities patrolling especially during spring and summer months. Start handing out tickets.
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Post by FlyAndStream on Mar 25, 2019 10:07:14 GMT -6
- Better signage
- The park needs better signage at all the walk and wade access spots clearly specifying regulations and zones. AR and MO do this really well.
- Many people are harvesting fish using bait, or barbed treble hook crank baits, in the red zones maybe out of ignorance, but certainly others who simply don't care.
- The old park dam gate at the entrance to Zone 2, has a great regulations sign, there should be one of these at day use, EH parking lots, Cold Hole, Cardiac Hill, Beaver Trail parking area, Spillway parking area, etc.
- Better signage is the first step towards better education and enforcement
- Enforcement
- I've fished the park once a week for the past 2 years. I've only ever seen the conservation officers at the lodge having lunch, and never on the river.
- They need to be more present enforcing regulations. Do the park rangers do this as well? I don't often see them outside their vehicles either.
- When there's a lack of enforcement, people know and take advantage of it, putting the responsibility of enforcement on people who love and want to protect the resource creates opportunities for conflict when speaking up.
- Without proper enforcement the resource will be taken advantage of and devalued
- I regularly watch people fill a stringer with fish, then take them to a cooler in their vehicle and come fill their stringer again, and they're barely even trying to hide it.
- Lower daily bag limits
- Lower the daily bag limit to 2 or 3 rainbows in Blue Zones
- Only allow rainbows between 12"-18" to be harvested in Blue Zones
- The generous daily bag limits of 6 have fostered a 'harvest meat' mentality instead of enjoying the resource and eating a few trout if your camping type of thing.
- It will save money. A single daily stringer limit of 6 stocked trout costs ODFW somewhere around $25 to put in the river. Cut the bag limit in half and now you have half of your annual stocking budget to use for other things, like enforcement.
- Catch and release
- All brown trout should be caught and released, in all zones. These fish are reproducing and should be returned to the river.
- Please implement strictly catch and release, of all trout, in all Red Zones. It's asinine to see an area that's suppose to be 'protected' allow for its largest resident fish (spawners, 20+") to be toted out on someone's stringer – is the area special or not, if so, protect it with catch and release only.
- Implement catch and release (delayed harvest) of any rainbow below 12" and over 18" in all Blue zones, the former are likely juveniles and the later are likely spawners. This will allow these fish to continue to spawn and be caught over and over again, while allowing the juveniles to make it to adulthood and have a better chance at survival.
- Single hook lure/fly
- I would personally like to see a prohibition on the use of treble hooks in both Red and Blue zones. These hooks can kill fish indiscriminately.
- Use of barbless hooks only in all Red zones
- Rezoning
- Make Cold Hole and the Bluffs Blue zones, leave the Rock pile run and Evening Hole Red zones. The fish spawn through this section quite a bit. I consistently catch wild juvenile fish through the rock pile and EH, please protect them, and these spawning grounds.
- I would like to see a stretch of Spillway turned into a Red Zone, maybe around Cardiac.
- In return, make all of Zone 2 a Blue zone.
- Less stocking
- We have fish that are spawning, please limit stocking to certain areas designated for put and take. Don't stock on top of wild and resident fish.
- Lower daily bag limits should mean less overall stocking.
- Stocked fish compete with resident and stream born fish for food and habitat, just dumping in more and more aggressive stockers to maintain perceived catch-rates is not a conservation strategy and is scientifically proven to harm resident fish populations.
- 30 years ago Montana did something that stunned anglers across the state and the nation: it stopped stocking trout in streams and rivers that supported wild trout populations, yet that decision has proven to be the right choice. It's created a half-billion dollar a year industry for the state and set it apart as a premier fishing destination. Oklahoma has an opportunity to do something really special here in the Southern US, as this stream has been proven to support wild trout populations.
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Post by greenman on Mar 25, 2019 11:56:50 GMT -6
- Better signage
- Enforcement
- Lower daily bag limits
- Catch and release
- Single hook lure/fly
- Rezoning
- Less stocking
I agree with all the points that FlyandStream has listed. No. 2, is one that I can also attest too. After fishing the LMFR for over 15 years (off and on) I've only seen the people being checked three times for licenses and stringer limits. Have witnessed countless people who have no regard for the stream. Anything from rock tossing, littering, over limits on stringers to sinking beer cans in the middle of hickory hole. Yes we did shout out to the man who was sinking cans, It was an area that my son and me where wading without the encumbrance of waders, and the kayakers where putting in at the same area.
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Post by jonbo on Mar 25, 2019 12:12:50 GMT -6
-Make Evening Hole Red Zone begin below the Bluffs, leaving Bluffs and Cold Hole as Blue Zones.
-make "half" of Spillway a Red Zone. I'm not particular which section should be Red, although Upper Spillway seems the natural choice. Then, maybe, it could be stocked but rarely, and a wild population encouraged to establish itself. If the above 2 ideas were taken, then from say, the waterfall in the middle of Spillway down through the Bluffs would be Blue. The geographical limits of the zones would be pretty easy to understand. There'd be a lot of bank fishing/lawn chair - type of access in that Blue Zone. The Upper Spillway Red Zone would be slightly hard to access. There'd really be no excuse.
-Catch and release only for browns. Catch and release for all rainbows over something like 20 inches.
-Improved signage. Really allow no excuses.
-Single hooks only, throughout. No use having these restrictions if the fish are being killed by treble hooks anyhow.
-Slightly lower limits, like 4 or 5, for the rainbows.
-Much, much more regulation enforcement once this is all sorted out and established.
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Post by jonbo on Mar 25, 2019 12:20:56 GMT -6
Oh, and, let that river break that goes through the cypress trees at the Rockpile continue so that it creates kind of a replacement for Lost Creek.
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Post by flymaster on Mar 25, 2019 17:50:19 GMT -6
How about they just get of the red zones since no one enforces it anyway?
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Post by coldwaterfly on Mar 26, 2019 6:15:51 GMT -6
My E-mail to the Foundation went into a lot further detail, but I agree with a lot of the others have to say...
1). Immediate release of all brown trout and all native born "wild" trout without question.
2). Proper signage with depiction and adequate identification of stream born wild trout placed strategically throughout the park.
3). The ban of all lures deemed "bait" by definition and the ban of all treble hooks.
4). Lowered keep limits for stocked trout.
5). Enforce the regulations. (I fish the LMFR a lot & have never been checked)
6). It's not regulatory, but continued habitat enhancements can only be beneficial to the river.
Most of what I had to say only benefitted the fly fishing community. Thus, how it should be. Tired of picking up trash, fishing line, bait packaging, etc.
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Post by dainw on Mar 26, 2019 9:07:08 GMT -6
I think a lot of these suggestions are great, but probably not realistic. The ODWC isn’t going to ban bait, ever. They also aren’t going to make the whole river catch and release. Also, mandating catch and release on wild, stream born trout (no such thing as a “native born trout in Oklahoma), is unrealistic. It’s almost impossible to tell with 100% accuracy what a stream born fish is and what a stocker that’s been in the river a while is.
I think a rezoning would be beneficial. Better signage would be great. Better protection for the browns would nice.Lowering bag limits to 4 instead of 6 would be unvelieveable. Honestly though, I’d just be happy if they enforced the regulations they have currently.
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Post by lipripper1983 on Mar 26, 2019 9:19:14 GMT -6
I think a lot of these suggestions are great, but probably not realistic. The ODWC isn’t going to ban bait, ever. They also aren’t going to make the whole river catch and release. Also, mandating catch and release on wild, stream born trout (no such thing as a “native born trout in Oklahoma), is unrealistic. It’s almost impossible to tell with 100% accuracy what a stream born fish is and what a stocker that’s been in the river a while is. I think a rezoning would be beneficial. Better signage would be great. Better protection for the browns would nice.Lowering bag limits to 4 instead of 6 would be unvelieveable. Honestly though, I’d just be happy if they enforced the regulations they have currently. That's what I was thinking. It's difficult even for an experienced trout angler to tell the difference between a stocker and a wild born trout. Never mind billy bob who's throwing power bait. He won't know or probably won't even care anyway. Also want to point out that I've been fishing the LMFR consistenly for a year now and haven't once been stopped by a ranger. I've seen a ranger out walking stream side once during that period. Otherwise if I see them they're just sitting in their truck pretending like they're being productive. Those park rangers need to be more active and spend more time outside the truck than in.
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Post by Eddie on Mar 26, 2019 9:46:03 GMT -6
*Great ideas---keep them coming. If you have more concerns please list or reinforce those posted before that you agree with. The more we can collect will show the interest that we have for the LMF River.Thanks again and have a great day on the water. Eddie
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Post by golferjeff on Mar 26, 2019 15:02:30 GMT -6
Park Rangers can enforce park rules AND ODWC regulations inside the park. Speed limits, leash laws, illegal swimming, trespassing, boating regs, fishing regs, and state laws are all enforceable. Game Wardens cannot enforce Park regulations. I have also sent my letter to the ODWC via the Mountain Fork Foundation, but here was the gist of it: 1) C&R all brown trout 2) Lower bag limits to 4 rainbows, any size (I agree that joe schmo cannot tell the difference between a stocker and a wild fish) 3) Make the entire stretch between Cold Hole and Zone II a blue zone while at the same time making Spillway creek a red zone in its entirety (if you attended the LMFRF meeting, there is a method to this madness) 4) ENFORCE whatever regulations are finalized - nothing matters if there is no enforcement 5) Hire a dedicated official to enforce park and game regs - can be done by charging a daily fishing fee or a park usage fee 6) Institute a minimum flow program (somewhat already being done) 7) Make all red zones Catch and release exclusively, barbless hooks, no bait, no treble hooks 8) Once these are done, organizations can manipulate their strategies accordingly I like the EH too, but think of what a cool place SPillway could be with some restoration and enforcing the regs above. Fly Guys can still fish EH, but you battle bait and lure guys. BUT, bigger fish, wild fish, privately stocked fish, and lack of access on Spillway - yeah, that's what I would like. A little like Colorado without a 10 hour drive.
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Post by breeden3 on Mar 26, 2019 19:42:32 GMT -6
How about they just get of the red zones since no one enforces it anyway? That would be a terrible idea. The majority of people fishing bait still obey the regulations. There are some that poach yes. But there are still a lot of protected fish, including a lot of wild fish and browns, in the red zone. Doing away with the red zone would open it up to everyone instead of the minority of people poaching. We already lost a lot of water due to the floods, let’s not advocate for even less. I would be okay with a rezone of the red zone into upper Spillway but not doing away with it completely.
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Post by huntnfish2much on Mar 26, 2019 22:13:01 GMT -6
Brown trout released ASAP 100%
4 rainbows may be kept, with only one fish over 20”.
Make Spillway creek and Zone 2 red zones with C&R only. Spillway creek should be fly fishing only with barbless hooks only.
I would love to see Spillway Creek (and Zone 2) have some hydraulic works performed on them to divert and channel water to look like a Colorado trout stream.
Spillway creek used to have some great runs and plunge-pools in it. Some of you may even remember the Evening Hole when it was basically frog water. Spillway Creek AND Zone 2 could be re-structured to become beautiful trout habitat.
Several have ventured out to mention enforcement of the fishing laws, which I agree, are poorly enforced. I believe that the speed limits should be enforced as well, throughout the park.
It has gotten so crowded and so busy in the park that it’s becoming dangerous to jog or ride a bicycle. Crossing from one side to another at any of the bridges is taking your life into your own hands.
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Post by dainw on Mar 27, 2019 4:09:34 GMT -6
Brown trout released ASAP 100% 4 rainbows may be kept, with only one fish over 20”. Make Spillway creek and Zone 2 red zones with C&R only. Spillway creek should be fly fishing only with barbless hooks only. I would love to see Spillway Creek (and Zone 2) have some hydraulic works performed on them to divert and channel water to look like a Colorado trout stream. Spillway creek used to have some great runs and plunge-pools in it. Some of you may even remember the Evening Hole when it was basically frog water. Spillway Creek AND Zone 2 could be re-structured to become beautiful trout habitat. Several have ventured out to mention enforcement of the fishing laws, which I agree, are poorly enforced. I believe that the speed limits should be enforced as well, throughout the park. It has gotten so crowded and so busy in the park that it’s becoming dangerous to jog or ride a bicycle. Crossing from one side to another at any of the bridges is taking your life into your own hands. I’m just curious what you would do to spillway and zone II to make them look more like a Colorado trout stream? In my opinion, all the pocket water on spillway that was created after the floods makes it look more like Colorado than it did before the floods. I loved the old spillway but it reminded me more of a Missouri trout park than it did a Colorado stream. Not sure id change much about zone II either but that’s just me.
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Post by dannys on Mar 27, 2019 9:16:50 GMT -6
Dain--you one funny fella! Why not German Grayling to go with the English? Then we could have bilingual Grayling.
Seriously now, I think many of you bring up some great ideas. Should give Eddie some good material to present. I wonder if enforcement will ever be stepped up. Gotta care about the resource more than hurting feelings or upsetting a local voter.
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Post by fvanek on Mar 27, 2019 19:31:51 GMT -6
Jeff is correct. Both can enforce the game laws in the park. The Park Ranger's priority between March and October is to keep the peace in the park and attempt to keep the visitors safe, which is not an easy job at all. I would love to see them enforce the limits and zone regulations more, but when they have a couple of Rangers dealing with such crowds, that is usually not possible. I would love to see the game wardens more though. Unfortunately I haven't been on the river much over the past year. The four years before, I was usually there at least once every two to three weeks. In that time, I saw a game warden actually patrolling the river once. To be fair to the Game Wardens, they usually only have 2-3 covering several counties 24 hours a day. Take into account their days off, vacation time, training, and enforcing hunting regulations, very little time is left for the LMF.
Thanks for starting this thread Eddie. This fall I will be a regular again and would love to see some improvements on the river.
I don't see the limits being reduced, but I would love to see no trout over 20" kept. Lets make all of Spillway a C&R and I will teach Bill how to make it up down Spillway like Evan used to make me hike it. There are some very nice areas on middle Spillway Creek.
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Post by Eddie on Mar 29, 2019 15:28:46 GMT -6
Fellows we are ending this section on Apr.3rd (Wed) and Will start to get info to both Pat Waters and Don Groom. Thanks for all the ideas and comments (Dane you are killing me when I have read ten min. of rambling to get One idea. Just Kidding.) FYI on Wed of April 3 we are putting in the Browns bought by the foundation. This will be a great addition to the river and many thanks to Pat and the foundation for getting this done.
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Post by jonbo on Mar 29, 2019 16:43:16 GMT -6
If we posted our preferences here, do we not need to post them at the LMF Foundation site?
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Post by breeden3 on Mar 29, 2019 16:47:16 GMT -6
None of those browns will be going into Z2 thankfully!
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Post by huntnfish2much on Mar 29, 2019 18:54:01 GMT -6
None of those browns will be going into Z2 thankfully! Yep. According to everything I've read here and witnessed over the many years I've been fishing at Beavers Bend, those brownies will have a much better chance of landing in someone's skillet if they're not in Zone 2! 😂 JR
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Post by breeden3 on Mar 29, 2019 19:54:45 GMT -6
None of those browns will be going into Z2 thankfully! Yep. According to everything I've read here and witnessed over the many years I've been fishing at Beavers Bend, those brownies will have a much better chance of landing in someone's skillet if they're not in Zone 2! 😂 JR That's why we are stocking them as fingerlings. The best trout habitat on the river is in Spillway. The people doing the "bug" survey found the greatest densities and most diversity in Spillway creek. They sampled the entire river. Also, the best water temps are on the Spillway. There is also more water for juvenile fish to hide in. There aren't as many predatory fish in Spillway, its is much harder for birds of prey to hunt there, and the otters don't go up there. Rather than stocking large pellet head browns that will get pulled out because of general indifference or just not knowing the difference, we are putting in fish that will grow up in the river. There are already browns that survive year after year in middle and lower Spillway despite bait pressure. Same thing with the juvenile wild rainbows. They are thriving, even in the most heavily bait fished holes. These fingerling browns are going to thrive up there and learn to avoid bait while they are still small and won't be kept. The future of the river, and its return to greatness, relies on Spillway creek.
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Post by huntnfish2much on Mar 29, 2019 22:31:34 GMT -6
The best trout habitat on the river may very well be in Spillway Creek, but I have seen it with my own eyes that without enforcement, many of those brown trout will wind up in someone's skillet.
If you read my earlier post about suggestions to make our fishery better, I mentioned that something similar to the evening hole re-work should be done both in SC and Z2.
When the evening hole was nothing but frog water, there was huge opposition from a lot of people to leave it as it was. As pressure increases year after year after year, something is going to get to the breaking point where you simply won't be able to fish without crossing someone's line.
You mentioned water temps. That's exactly why the evening hole work happened. The water temperature increased 4 or 5 degrees between what used to be cold hole and what is still evening hole bridge.
I agree that there are natural predators in Zone 2. When there were wiers in SC, there were otters there, too.
Bug life may be more abundant in SC, but have you seen the sculpins and crayfish in Z2? Big brown trout and big rainbow trout become meat eaters if they live long enough.
The future of our beautiful, beloved fishery does not lie solely in Spillway Creek. It lies in the hands of people that can look farther down the road (or stream) and see the big picture of making the entire stretch of water fishable and able to sustain reproducing trout.
I have stood and watched large rainbow trout spawning in Z2.
The biggest brown trout ever caught at Beavers Bend was caught all the way down in Zone Three!
I'm stepping off my soap box now. Put those brown trout wherever you please.
JR
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