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Post by breeden3 on Mar 30, 2019 13:01:46 GMT -6
Unfortunately, we will never see work done to Spillway Creek or Z2. Spillway Creek is now bed rock, and is incredible anyways. To repair it to what once was would cost millions of dollars, if it is even possible. Personally I like it a lot now, and it is getting better and better.
They will not do improvements to Z2 ever because that is where the generation is. Short of boulders, whatever they put in will get eroded and washed away over time. Also, the generation makes Z2 and Z3 unfishable a lot of the time, so I don't really want them pouring any money into a spot we can rarely fish.
The water moves through Evening Hole faster now than it did before the floods and water temps were actually pretty good throughout the summer in EH last year. Our guides got a max temp of 65 in EH. Unlike Z2 where our guides recorded temps of 75 degrees. Or Z3 where state biologists recorded temps over 80 degrees.
There are also tons of sculpins and crayfish in the Spillway Creek. Not just Z2 and Z3 that has them. There are plenty of baitfish for big trout to eat in Spillway. And big trout don't just eat meat....they are always willing to take nymphs.
I think you are under the impression that me and the other guides never fish Z2 and Z3. We scout them all the time. Neither has returned to what it was before the floods, and it is possible it won't return. It isn't just the park that gets poached. I have seen people walk out with stringers of huge fish from Z2, as have many people on this forum. There is equally no enforcement there, and it is more secluded so people can get away with it even easier. I have floated Z2 and Z3 at full generation in my Outkast pontoon raft throwing streamers and have never touched a single trout. We catch bass, even a hybrid, but no big trout. Yes the rainbows and browns that are still down there try to spawn, we have all seen them, but they are never successful. The ODWC team sampling juveniles didn't find a single one below 40 ft hole, and they sampled Z2 and 3. Yes the state record came from Z3. But those were before the flood. Heck Z2 still fished incredible right after the floods, but the summer immediately after the December flood was a KILLER.
There isn't a part of this river that I have not fished and don't know about. I have fished the entire length of the trout water as well as the tributaries many times. Both wade and floating. These are observations from being on the river every single day, whether fishing or guiding. Our other guides will tell you the same thing. Trust me, nobody wants Z2 or Z3 to come back as bad as we do. It was so easy to walk down to Z2 and catch or put clients on giant trout.
The future of the river is Spillway. 1. Best water temps. (Most Critical) 2. Best holding water. (The way the runs are, and how the bedrock is shaped makes it difficult for bait fishermen to fish anything but the big holes. That leaves tons of protected water where our wild trout thrive). 3. Best food base. (Not just bugs, but scuds, minnows, and sculpin too). 4. Protection from predators. (Outside of the big holes, Spillway is tougher people access. The herons, eagles, mergansers, and ospreys don't visit Spillway as much due to turbulent water. Otters also prefer to hunt the lake like water for trout).
There are good numbers of brown trout in Z1, from below Grapevine to the 10 ft fall on Spillway. They seldom get caught by bait fishermen or spin fishermen. We are also catching juvenile browns from the 2017 spawn.
Again I am on the water nearly everyday and these are just my and others' observations.
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Post by turfdawg on Mar 30, 2019 14:42:35 GMT -6
I am being to like to fish the new spillway creek more and more. I just wish it wasn’t so hard for a old short fat clumsy guy to navigate. Hard to believe that I fall more outside the water than in the water on spillway. I do love the pocket water though.
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Post by lipripper1983 on Mar 30, 2019 14:43:26 GMT -6
Surely some improvements can be made to spillway to make it even better than it already is. I'm of the opinion that there's always room for improvement. Even for the best trout waters.
As turfdawg mentioned above, it's hard to get around spillway for older anglers. It would atleast be nice to make accessible paths on either side of the river for the older fly anglers to get around instead of them all having to crowd up in evening hole and bluffs. I realize the downside here is that it'll give easier access to poachers, tourists and spincast billy bob's. But atleast the more elderly fly anglers will have better access to it.
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Post by jonbo on Mar 30, 2019 16:11:24 GMT -6
The only thing I have against Spillway Creek is the fact that it IS pure bedrock. Is there any natural freestone stream that's like that? I'm thinking there isn't. I believe in a freestone river that the pockets all have substrate in the bottom which limits how deep they are and angled or jagged. At any given point on Spillway you can step off an edge and go down 4 or 5 feet to a wedge shaped bottom. It's weird, frankly, and quite treacherous to navigate. Fortunately I know to be extremely careful. Like Turfdawg, I've taken all my spills so far on the dry ground.
I agree with Peter that there's nothing to be done about it. It would be prohibitive, whatever it would take, to get any sand/gravel substrate back in there. Meanwhile, I'm sure as well that the way it is makes perfectly wonderful trout habitat. So me, Turfdawg, and the rest of the slightly clumsies will just have to make the best of it.
The only improvement that I wonder if it's possible would be to provide a little substrate for trout spawning. That is, say, after that first fast run coming out of the big hole by the gates, to shove a semi-truck load of gravel into the river-bed to provide substrate in those riffles. That might be an improvement that could actually be made. Just a thought/fantasy.
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Post by breeden3 on Mar 30, 2019 16:25:50 GMT -6
Jonbo, the good news is there is already a lot of substrate that has made its way back into the river the last few years. There is actually quite a bit of gravel now throughout Spillway. We have actually had very successful spawns in Spillway the last 2 years!
And the Spillway is already incredible. There doesn't need to be anything done to it. Other than making from the dam to the waterfall redzone!
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Post by jonbo on Mar 30, 2019 17:53:53 GMT -6
So it's all settled then. Excellent! Thanks, Peter! Now I just have to learn how to fish it properly.
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Post by glitchmo on Mar 31, 2019 13:54:45 GMT -6
I didn’t fish old spillway creek but the way it is now reminds me a lot of the canyon sections in several western rivers I have fished. It’s tilted shale plates instead of giant round granite boulders, but generally a similar concept.
I like the idea of making spillway c&r only, artificials only, and the rest a blue zone. It’s simple to understand and easy to enforce (the current patchwork setup is confusing for new anglers to the area).
Some better trails along the banks would make access easier.
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Post by coldwaterfly on Apr 1, 2019 8:01:47 GMT -6
A lot of great information and ideas. Some days I struggle and then some days are on fire while in SC. I've watched guys put on clinics while I break off fly after fly. I need to focus on technique in SC.
Peter, do you believe turning that section of river into a Red Zone is a real possibility? Would it be possible to enforce regulations?
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Post by schrederman on Apr 1, 2019 19:48:54 GMT -6
Wow... lots of good ideas here. The only thing I disagree with is making Bluff Hole a blue zone or for kids only. My mobility is waning and I can fish there. I've only fished Spillway a couple of times and I can get around there OK for now... except in a few places. I'd like to see it as a red zone, as well. But I'm just an occasional visitor these days since my eldest son is so busy and my youngest has moved to Michigan... I'm sure my input will have no real bearing... keep up the good works. I've still got a few trips in me.
Jack
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Post by breeden3 on Apr 2, 2019 8:19:06 GMT -6
I thought at one time the state might go for moving the red zone to upper Spillway. Now I don't think they are interested in doing that. It would solve so many of the rivers problems. Also, I think if you made it catch and release, instead of red zone, it would be much easier for people to understand. The Spillway access points would be easy to mark with proper signage. I also think the difficulty of access somewhat protects it. Yes, the couple of giant holes at the base of cardiac may still get poached, but that still leaves a ton of water that the trout would thrive in. I also think poachers would be less likely to access Cardiac hill if they knew they may have to walk right back up that hill with a ticket. It would be much better protected than Bluffs or Cold Hole, where you literally have to park and walk 200 ft to get to the river.
I think you are going to have some poaching no matter what on the LMF, which is why I think it would be better to have the more difficult access, and best water red zone, while having the easiest access blue zone.
Something else to note is that I believe if Upper Spillway was red zone/catch and release, it would require significantly fewer stockings, which would free up a lot of fish for the rest of the river, eliminating the need for people to have to poach to catch fish.
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Post by turfdawg on Apr 2, 2019 8:57:29 GMT -6
Peter, why do you think they aren’t interested in making it a red zone?
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Post by breeden3 on Apr 2, 2019 9:41:52 GMT -6
Turfdawg, that is a good question. I have brought it up and the good reasons behind it but it sounds like the state is wanting to go in a different direction. I really feel like this zone change would be the least work the state would have to do to make the biggest positive impact on the river. The fish would filter down the river from the top and positively impact the entire river.
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Post by turfdawg on Apr 2, 2019 11:20:33 GMT -6
Turfdawg, that is a good question. I have brought it up and the good reasons behind it but it sounds like the state is wanting to go in a different direction. I really feel like this zone change would be the least work the state would have to do to make the biggest positive impact on the river. The fish would filter down the river from the top and positively impact the entire river. I really thought the way Don was talking trading upper spillway for cold Hole area would be a pretty good deal I could see them doing away with the red zone except for zone 2
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Post by huntnfish2much on Apr 2, 2019 14:48:25 GMT -6
Turfdawg, that is a good question. I have brought it up and the good reasons behind it but it sounds like the state is wanting to go in a different direction. I really feel like this zone change would be the least work the state would have to do to make the biggest positive impact on the river. The fish would filter down the river from the top and positively impact the entire river. I really thought the way Don was talking trading upper spillway for cold Hole area would be a pretty good deal I could see them doing away with the red zone except for zone 2 TD..?? Are you actually advocating that Zone 2 is a viable fishery?? Careful, there, my brother! There are precious few of us! 😂 JR
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Post by Eddie on Apr 3, 2019 11:08:38 GMT -6
Thanks for strong ideas. Will compile and get to Don. As of now Browns are coming in Friday. More info coming about the stocking.
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Post by Eddie on Apr 6, 2019 9:00:19 GMT -6
BROWN TROUT 3-4 inches put in spillway creek yesterday. A total of 8,000 and all beautiful. Will keep all updated on them and what is going on with suggestions. Eddie
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Post by jonbo on Apr 17, 2019 6:55:47 GMT -6
Eddie, Peter, any others "in the know", is there any particular time-line that you know of for the state (Park? I'm not sure what) to make the decisions such as where the Red/Blue Zones will be permanently? Will they stay as they've always been? Will they be modified in any way such as different ones of our comments have suggested? Will whatever remains of the rockpile be an island creating two channels, or a structure off to the side of a single channel? That and all the other stuff we've talked about here, is there a particular time that decisions are to be made, or do we just have to wait and see what happens?
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Post by marshmouse on Apr 20, 2019 15:53:00 GMT -6
Are there any fly only areas? If not then that’s my suggestion. I usually fish north arkansas rivers but recently started fishing the LMF since it’s close to home. Also I have landed some nice rainbows recently so I’ve been coming back. Only problem I see is the last 2 times I’ve been there, some guy in camouflage (a different one each time) comes stumbling into the river and launches a pool ball on a spinning rod either directly on my indicator or perfectly in my drift. No bueno amigos! I have found less folks down river though so that’s a positive.
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Post by jonbo on Apr 20, 2019 17:00:17 GMT -6
Marshmouse, Most of the river upstream of the Power House is what's called "Blue Zone". Basically, all normal types of trout fishing are legal. Being as I don't keep trout most of the time, I don't keep in my mind what the "limit" is. Then, upstream, the area between the second to the last bridge (going upstream) and the last one is the Red Zone. Single hooks, crimped barbs, artificial baits. Basically, don't keep fish. It's mostly fly fishermen through there. The first area is called "Evening Hole" till you get to the "Rock Pile", then "The Bluffs", Then, the wide pool is called "Cold Hole". That's all been Red Zone, historically, I think. Upstream of that the last couple of miles until you get to the Spillway is called "Spillway Creek". "Spillway" is all Blue Zone.
Except that, what with all the reconstruction of the river, they've kind of stopped enforcing much of anything, for the time being. Some folks realize this and have been behaving accordingly as they choose. I think we've been told that the Zones are being considered for changing around to some extent or other. This thread was about getting our input on the process. Some of us are advocating giving up Cold Hole and The Bluffs to being Blue Zones in exchange for making the upper part of Spillway Creek a Red Zone with basically no fish taking allowed. We'd like to see if it might become kind of a trophy trout area. We'll see what they decide.
TL/DR: It's all a bit of a free-for-all right now. It's not supposed to stay that way.
Can I ask you, do you live in Arkansas, Oklahoma? I'm in Arkansas, myself.
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Post by turfdawg on Apr 21, 2019 6:18:01 GMT -6
Jonbo, I wish you were right on the single hook and I mentioned that in the things I would like to see changed. Right now it just has to be barbless. You can use a Rapala stick bait with double treble hooks and as long as the barbs are smashed you are okay
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Post by greenman on Apr 22, 2019 9:37:10 GMT -6
Turfdawg, I would have been in agreement with Jonbo on the single hook until I read your post. I had to re-read the regs for a red zone. Red Zones: Below Broken Bow dam from the first Highway Bridge below the Spillway downstream to the second Highway Bridge below the Spillway, including the Evening Hole stream channel; and from the State Park Dam downstream to the mouth of Rough Branch Creek): Rainbow trout – Daily limit: one; Size limit: 20-inch minimum. Possession of any trout less than 20 inches is prohibited. Use of bait or barbed hooks is prohibited in the Red Zone. Fishing is restricted to barbless hooks, artificial flies and artificial lures only (see Trout Regulations). So we that information, we need a fly with a triple barbless trebles, about the size of a texas grapefruit that is hard plastic and about a full oz. in weight to show the baitcasters how its done. We can call it the Porcupine. Regs are from : www.eregulations.com/oklahoma/fishing/trout-area-information/
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Post by Fenwick on Apr 22, 2019 12:06:20 GMT -6
Getting off track but I know that each and every one of us working the Red Zone has already found a so called "Porcupine" lure in the brush or tree branch along the banks while also picking up the discarded 50 yard ball of 50 Lb. test mono, the empty Uncle Josh jars, the Eagle Claw snelled hook packaging, the tennis ball sized red and white plastic bobbers, the old chain stringer, etc. My personal best Red Zone find is a Mepps #5 Aglia tandem lure in near mint condition at the end of the 50 ft. of 50 lb. test mono my nymph snagged on a drift. I checked that lure out online and it sells for $12.50. That sure was an expensive loss for an overly optimistic "I'm gonna catch a BIG one with this!" fisherman. Now back to the alleged new regulations we hope for....
I suppose the odd "this doesn't belong here" finds in the Red Zone could be a forum of it's own.
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Post by glitchmo on Apr 22, 2019 12:47:00 GMT -6
I would just say that the fact that it’s this difficult to explain the red/blue zones as currently constructed is itself a problem.
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Post by marshmouse on Apr 24, 2019 5:30:05 GMT -6
Marshmouse, Most of the river upstream of the Power House is what's called "Blue Zone". Basically, all normal types of trout fishing are legal. Being as I don't keep trout most of the time, I don't keep in my mind what the "limit" is. Then, upstream, the area between the second to the last bridge (going upstream) and the last one is the Red Zone. Single hooks, crimped barbs, artificial baits. Basically, don't keep fish. It's mostly fly fishermen through there. The first area is called "Evening Hole" till you get to the "Rock Pile", then "The Bluffs", Then, the wide pool is called "Cold Hole". That's all been Red Zone, historically, I think. Upstream of that the last couple of miles until you get to the Spillway is called "Spillway Creek". "Spillway" is all Blue Zone. Except that, what with all the reconstruction of the river, they've kind of stopped enforcing much of anything, for the time being. Some folks realize this and have been behaving accordingly as they choose. I think we've been told that the Zones are being considered for changing around to some extent or other. This thread was about getting our input on the process. Some of us are advocating giving up Cold Hole and The Bluffs to being Blue Zones in exchange for making the upper part of Spillway Creek a Red Zone with basically no fish taking allowed. We'd like to see if it might become kind of a trophy trout area. We'll see what they decide. TL/DR: It's all a bit of a free-for-all right now. It's not supposed to stay that way. Can I ask you, do you live in Arkansas, Oklahoma? I'm in Arkansas, myself.
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Post by marshmouse on Apr 24, 2019 5:33:06 GMT -6
Jonbo, I live in Texarkana so LMF is a viable option for a day trip. Headed to the White this weekend though. I guess the place for a trophy area is where the best structure, dissolved oxygen levels and favorable water temps remain through the harsh months. JUly, August, Sept. I’m sure you guys already knew that though. Good stuff being said about the bait guys here haha!
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