|
Post by greenman on Jul 28, 2017 6:34:35 GMT -6
The foundation chipped in money for rental equipment for ODWC. The bad thing at the moment is that the bridge contractor is having to modify what has been accomplished to place the bridge. They should be held accountable to return the modified areas back previous state. Only the ODWC can do that. Maybe while the bridge company has equipment in the area, someone from ODWC or corps could borrow it and place a few strategic boulders for trout holding areas.
|
|
|
Post by okieman71 on Jul 28, 2017 7:06:25 GMT -6
They should be made to fix it but I am almost certain the workers installing the bridge know absolutely nothing about hydrology, trout and the like. It would be good if the ODWC would or could oversee the repair of that area once again. However, the major issue in my very humble backward opinion are the water temps. Anyone who would love to see this river flourish again should be hoping, lobbying, etc. for a colder water solution. There is a solution and even funding available to pay for it (LMFRF). That being said, the government hoops must be jumped through to get it done. These SE OK summers are very hard on the stream in its current state. The floods made sure of that. water coming out of the pipe at 62 is just not cold enough downstream to allow the river to be great. Now water coming out at 40-45 which is possible would solve the major problem for this river. I guess what I am say is we can have the best runs, riffles, pocket water etc., if the temps are in the low 70's its no bueno. Right now ZII is just flat out too warm and lower SC and EH are not far behind. This hasn't even been one of our hotter summers. Kudos to Tyler for the awesome studies. His info. should just solidify the rational to implement the colder water solution. That and current water temps should be enough for the geniuses to say; Yep lets do it. Its not gonna cost us a dime anyway. Bureaucracy is AWFUL.
|
|
|
Post by tsfarling on Jul 28, 2017 10:26:24 GMT -6
The bridge contractors are engineers. They are definitely not hydrologists or stream enhancement experts that know anything about trout. They are there doing what they know to fix their problem and that is all. Unfortunately, it is causing problems with the trout stream that cannot be fixed anytime soon due to priorities throughout the region and lack of staffing with ODWC heavy equipment operators. Okieman, you are right, the greatest threat to the river is the temperatures. Trout are not supposed to be in that river but due to stockings and the release from spillway and hydroreleases every other day downstream, all zones stay cool enough to keep them there. The only problem that everyone needs to understand is that when the winters are mild with no cold rains or snow, no matter how low you put a pipe in the reservoir, eventually, you will run out of cold water releases for the trout stream. It is just a fact. Most years, the trout stream would stay cool enough all year long. As temperatures continue to rise during winter time and precipitation decreases, this will become more of a problem. This streams capability of keeping cold all summer is dependent on what happens in winter. Some years will be good and some years will be bad until you can engineer cold water from the sky in the winter into that watershed, you can't fix what is already in the reservoir. ODWC gets what nature gives it. Once winter and spring rains are done, X amount of cold water is created. The more they draw it down, the more likely it is the lake will mix and then warm water will start to flow out of any pipes that are put in or currently exist. This year is a great example to remember how a mild winter effects a tailwater fishery. I hope this information helps. I can answer any questions you might have about this.
|
|
|
Post by okieman71 on Jul 28, 2017 10:38:25 GMT -6
I talked to a guy that said they checked the water in the reservoir at 100' and it was like 40 degrees. I don't see how it wouldn't be beneficial to get that water vs. getting it at the current depth which is like 40' or less if I am not mistaken. The lake is close to 200' deep. Ive seen like 180 something on a depth finder. Cold water is there. I understand that if we have a milder winter it may not be quite as cool but if its coming from 100 ft. I do not see how the winter or rain would affect that much.
|
|
|
Post by Fenwick on Jul 28, 2017 12:51:59 GMT -6
Ya kinda gets yer hopes up when ya hear work is being done and then ya get kicked in the ba, er, shins when ya hear what was done. The ODWC helps in one way, the foundation too and then entities like the C.O.E and bridge builders arrive. "Hi, we're from the Bureau of Indian Affairs and we're here to help you!"
|
|
|
Post by turfdawg on Jul 28, 2017 15:52:49 GMT -6
Once all the road work and that type stuff gets done hopefully they can starting making improvements as time and funds permit over the years. Having been in the landscaping business for years I can assure you that sometimes you have to tear the heck out of something to make it better.
|
|
|
Post by jonbo on Jul 28, 2017 19:13:07 GMT -6
Sounds like quite a snafu. Who do the bridge contractors report to? I hope ODWC has some kind of authority to straighten their butts out if they don't have a good plan that they aim to follow through on. I can see they might have to mess up the bluffs and the rock pile run temporarily in order to fix up the Cold Hole, so long as their longer term goal is to fix up what they messed up even better than it was. As being reported, it kind of sounds like the right hand, the ODWC, is not being kept informed about what the left hand, the bridge contractor and whomever they report to (the Corps?) is up to. That doesn't sound too good.
|
|
|
Post by okieman71 on Jul 28, 2017 19:24:09 GMT -6
It won't be good jonbo. It will be handled about like the lake level was prior to the first flood!! Thats my guess.
|
|
|
Post by tsfarling on Jul 28, 2017 20:06:54 GMT -6
Again, their is cold water at the bottom, that's not the concern. The concern is the low amount of cold water in volume trapped under the warm water. The low volume of cold water was due to the mild winter. If they pump it from 200' and the volume of is the same as it is this year, they would still draw the warm water down. When you get past the thermocline, the temperature does not change drastically below that, maybe a couple degrees. If the lake is 200' deep and the thermocline sits in at 50' deep and you draw water from 100' deep, the water will be mixed well enough below that you should get a consistent temperature from 100'-200' no matter where the pipe sets. Right now, temps out of spillway are not great somewhere around 64 degrees. I believe last year it was in the 50's at this time of year but the abundance of cold water stored below the thermocline in they hypolimnion was greater, This years cold water didn't get that cold before it mixed in the late spring/early summer. Another issue is if you draw water too far from the bottom then you start dealing with dissolved oxygen issues and hypoxia. See attached photo of what a lake temperature profile looks like throughout the course of the summer. Hypolimnion is the bottom of the lake. Metalimnion is the middle or thermocline in the lake. Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by okieman71 on Jul 28, 2017 20:10:27 GMT -6
Interesting Tyler. So based on that info, is it safe to assume it would be a waste to go deeper in the reservoir??
|
|
|
Post by okieman71 on Jul 28, 2017 20:11:49 GMT -6
Is there a better solution? One question; The tailwater in Arkansas seem to always be in the 50's in the middle of the summer. Are the doing something different?
|
|
|
Post by tsfarling on Jul 28, 2017 21:12:39 GMT -6
Several factors are involved why they have colder water there including lower winter temperatures for longer periods of time and more winter precipitation. That system is very dynamic with three cool water fisheries that converge and then two large reservoirs that feed one to another in the Norfork and Bull Shoals. The solution is that mother nature must cooperate and give more precipitation in the winter.
|
|
|
Post by tsfarling on Jul 28, 2017 21:14:26 GMT -6
Interesting Tyler. So based on that info, is it safe to assume it would be a waste to go deeper in the reservoir?? I honestly think that it would only slightly improve temperatures. The volume of the water gained in the winter is the main factor controlling temperatures in the river. Unfortunately, this system seems to either have too much rain or not enough during the winter.
|
|
|
Post by jonbo on Jul 29, 2017 11:54:11 GMT -6
Tyler, your graph shows a fairly dramatic decrease in temperature in that "hypathlion" region that starts beneath the thermocline. That's where I think that we're talking about wishing we could draw the water from.
|
|
|
Post by troutbum54 on Jul 29, 2017 16:00:08 GMT -6
I believe you might be reading the graph wrong, but the spillway is currently in the hypolimnion region below the thermocline from what I’ve heard. In that region there’s roughly less than a degree decrease for every 5-10m of increased depth
|
|
|
Post by tsfarling on Jul 29, 2017 20:17:11 GMT -6
Jonbo, don't look at the line as a drop in temperature, it is showing a drop in depth. The temperature is logged at the top from left to right. You see it changes in the thermocline but it barely changes in the hypolimnion. Troutbum54, yes, the spillway pipe would be located in the hypolimnion.
|
|
|
Post by okieman71 on Jul 29, 2017 21:20:42 GMT -6
So, Tyler, what depth is the water coming from currently??
|
|
|
Post by jonbo on Jul 30, 2017 5:23:56 GMT -6
Whoops! Sorry, I see you're right. So, it seems as long as the intake remains somewhere below the thermocline, they're already doing as well as can be done. I guess the question would be is the current level of the intake safe from lake-level summertime droppage ever causing the thermocline to fall beneath it. THAT would be disastrous to the LMF trout population. But if it's quite unlikely to occur then I see why there hasn't been a real movement to upgrade the intake.
|
|
|
Post by tsfarling on Jul 30, 2017 14:24:07 GMT -6
I am unsure exactly what depth the spillway pipe is at. Jonbo, if the thermocline drops during the summer, yes, a loss of trout in the stream can happen. Not all of them would die but it wouldn't be great. With low precipitation during the winter and high withdrawals of cold water during the summer, the lake could potentially lose it's stratification and become mixed with warm water from top to bottom. It happens sometimes. I think that ODWC will manage it properly though. They have been taking preventative measures for three months now to make sure they don't run out of cold water.
|
|
|
Post by okieman71 on Jul 30, 2017 14:49:21 GMT -6
Tyler, are you saying under the current setup, if we have the right winter conditions, we could still have summer water temps in the 50's?? I don't recall ever seeing a summer where the water temps were in the 50's in July & August
|
|