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Post by hankinsfly on Nov 22, 2017 9:07:28 GMT -6
Dain- we might need to look at a spring time caddis trip to the white
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Post by dainw on Nov 22, 2017 14:09:30 GMT -6
You know that could work. Or a spring time trip the current river. Lotsa caddis up there, and stoneflies...
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Post by hankinsfly on Nov 22, 2017 21:00:12 GMT -6
Only fished the North Fork of the White in Missouri one day. Some good smallie streams up there
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Post by todd13 on Nov 22, 2017 21:25:31 GMT -6
Seriously, what about a state senator or congressman who FF? I think either some political clout or environmental interest stories are the only possible ways to generate any movement. USACE won't bother with a petition, I know that. You're gonna need someone with some state connections to a budget to get the ODWC's attn I would imagine. The only other possible angle would be the lack of management of a such a beautiful resource: wild, reproducing trout in such a pristine environment (yes I know they started as stockers). Considering the impact on bald eagles and the environment, a true 'vision' would steer and guide the BB state park/LMFR. Someone in a political position is over this park and they are politically connnected. "Oklahoma Is Losing It's Wild Trout" might be an angle.
I am gathering all of this from reading the accounts above - I know almost nothing of the past efforts and accomplishments, so take my suggestion with that understanding.
Here's a dream vision: America's first "green" state park where all rules and policies are guided toward converting the park to a model for environmentally conscientious management. This could include a focus on more hiking trails, backcountry camping, park ranger tours, bird viewing programs and eagle sighting "things". I am just spitballing, but you get the idea. Park "Rangers" could become Park "Guardians" charged to welcome and greet all visitors while walking and talking vs today's 'norm'.
And the real kicker: all fishing is catch and release except during "xxx" months as directed by a biologist like the state manages deer populations. That would drive the poachers to the Blue River or elsewhere and the park would become a tremendous attraction for those that love the outdoors and "being green". I am not a "green" person really, but appreciate those who are.
-sorry so long, I got long winded.
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Post by hankinsfly on Nov 22, 2017 21:31:59 GMT -6
That's a neat dream. But this is Oklahoma. We red... real red.
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Post by dainw on Nov 22, 2017 22:09:25 GMT -6
Plus we’re broke, real broke. Oklahoma doesn’t even have money to pay teachers let alone manage a trout stream.
On another note, Stephen you talkin about a spring trip to Missouri? Maybe hit a couple different rivers?
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Post by hankinsfly on Nov 22, 2017 22:46:36 GMT -6
I'd be down for that. I'd pick the white over anything else in the area. But if you say Missouri's got big caddis hatches and hungry trout, I'd check it out. Mid April best?
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Post by dainw on Nov 22, 2017 22:57:01 GMT -6
I like April for up there yeah. The current is a caddis factory with a good population of stoneflies and NFOW and the elevenpont are prolific stonefly rivers. April is a great time. Weather is nice and bugs are out. Just have to watch flows bc of heavy spring rains. Could always work in a trip to get White while we’ren out there as well.
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Post by jonbo on Nov 23, 2017 6:47:21 GMT -6
Todd, that's an inspired vision you present, and a lovely write-up. The only thing that I might suggest differently is that I don't think that creating a more or less all natural river, catch-and-release only, has any chance of ever flying with the powers that be in Oklahoma. It's not so much that Oklahoma is a "Red" state, but that they have a larger group of citizens to consider than just us fly-fishing "purists". They need to accommodate the put-and-take folks as well as us. For one thing, we're seriously outnumbered. Especially with the surrounding area scheduled for increased development, any proposal by us has to take account of that fact. Accommodating more folks on the river is going to be part of any plan that has any chance at all of moving forward.
The positive thing about this reality, because on its face it's cause for the gloom and doom that some are already falling into, is that we already have a pretty darned successful model to follow. That is, the river as it was managed right up until '15. Both the "purists" and the "bait chunkers" had really good experiences on the LMF, especially in the Park. I think any proposal that we come up with should be based on recreating the goodness for all of the old LMF in order to be taken seriously.
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Post by todd13 on Nov 23, 2017 9:58:30 GMT -6
Thanks for the feedback. There prob is not a more "red" person on this forum than myself, but the trout need to be managed like deer or elk in CO - with a vision (as you all have said). Not being critical, but the parks could generate a lot more money if managed differently.
I know that vision is very different and more "colorado-esque" than many OK folks would like. Against the wishes of many, I would like this model to encourage the poaching types to go to the other trout streams except during the designated months of catch and take (May-Jul?). The annual visitors would actually increase b/c we would see the "green" types and more FF visit from Sep-Apr. It would also be more family friendly with Park Guardians leading nature walks/hikes to see eagle nests and overlooking the bluffs. I don't see this costing more money - actually the ODWC wouldn't be spending as many dollars on trout for LMFR for one and I think an entry fee to the park would be just find also.
Now if we have to accomodate poachers, FF and bait clunkers, then maybe we designate certain areas for such. That would be simple and only really cost signage I guess. But I will say this and be done, LMFR is a beautiful natural resource that could be so much more.
I still like the idea of getting The Drake magazine or podcast doing a piece on LMFR...
Enjoy thanksgiving all.
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Post by dainw on Nov 23, 2017 11:00:28 GMT -6
Todd,
You know, I like where your head’s at, but to be honest Oklahoma isn’t ever going to be anything like Colorado. For one, we just don’t have anywhere near the amount and diversity of water types and habitat to ever get close to replicating anything like what they have in Colorado. Broken bow is nice, really nice for Oklahoma, but it’s not the Rockies. Also, and not to get too political about it, but the political climate in Oklahoma just isn’t going to allow anything like what you’re talking about to ever happen. In this state, conservation issues tend be lumped in with environmental issues, and rightfully so bc they are one in the same in my opinion. Unfortunately, in deep red Oklahoma, environmental issues, things like clean air and water quality, which we have to have in order to have trout, are routinely ignored in favor of commercial interests. I won’t get too deep into the politics of it all, but I will say if the health of our fisheries is important to you, maybe take a long hard look at how you’re voting and who you’re voting for, because I promise the party that’s been running Oklahoma the last 6 years isn’t doing anything to protect our fisheries.
With all that being said, I’d look to a state like Missouri as a model for how broken bow could be regulated. Not sure if you’ve had a chance to do much fishing up there, but they have 4 “trout parks” in Missouri. These are spring fed rivers that have hatcheries on site. They are stocking the rivers every day, or at least the first couple miles of “trout park” in the warmer months, March-October. You pay 5 bucks and you get to keep 4 fish and have to stop fishing when you hit your limit. There’s an opening bell and a closing bell and you can’t fish outside these times. Within the parks themselves there are areas that are regulated by which method of fishing you are allowed to do. Below the parks themselves, the rivers are managed more as “wild” fisheries. They aren’t stocked, at least not regularly, and rely almost entirely on escaped trout from the park to populate the streams. The current river below montuak state park is one of my favorites. It’s a “blue zone” which is the same as red zone here, for the first 8 miles below the park. It gets stocked once a year, with Browns and that’s it. All of the rainbows in the river are either wild or have held over as escapees from the park.
In the winter months, the parks stop stocking and are open only Friday-Monday for catch and release, fly fishing only. This system keeps everyone happy and is able to effectively manage recreation for both the meat hunting crowd and the fly fishing crowd. There’s no reason broken bow couldn’t replicate this system and probably bring it a lot more revenue than the state is currently.
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Post by hankinsfly on Nov 23, 2017 12:29:07 GMT -6
If you want to get real hippy with it, this would be managed as it was originally- a Kiamichi stream with native smallmouth. I like smallies, and hippies, and I like trout fishing in man-made conditions. I think some day, Oklahoma will recognize the potential of the fishery and manage it for such, but for now, it's just an Oklahoma put and take fishery. For all it's perceived shortcomings, lots of young people will still get to catch their first trout and their first fish in the stream. We still get to toss dries and stalk trout here, which is not a common thing in the White River system. We have lots of natural reproduction which is awesome. Lots more bugs seem to hatch here than in other area waters. Lots of good memories will still be made here and it'll continue to be the top spot in Oklahoma to catch strong, nice non-native trout.
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Post by mirvc17 on Nov 23, 2017 13:51:01 GMT -6
Aside from bad decisions from the Corps of Engineers, I would just like the current regulations enforced—make the poachers go away with heavy fines. I’d like to see the bag limits lowered too. And don’t even have them for the Red Zone—make it catch and release only, with single barbless hooks. Maybe include some of Spillway as a red zone?
It makes no sense to me that the Blue River has a C&R area (for much of the season) for stocked fish that can’t reproduce and that will die eventually—yet the LMF is year-round with a wild* population and NO C&R area.
Don’t get me wrong I’m glad the Blue has the C&R—the LMF just needs one too.
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Post by todd13 on Nov 23, 2017 17:26:23 GMT -6
Thanks guys for the background. I guess my vision is a little too "dreamy". I am not a politically inclined person and guess I am disappointed such issues aren't important to both parties. Like I said, I am likely the most conservative person here and just don't get it.
Ok, my last idea: give the poachers a food voucher for fish sticks at the gate to reduce traffic, we all have to volunteer 2 hours during each trip to walk shores to check licenses / stringers (yes we are allowed to carry while doing so) and Violators are given the choice of cleaning outhouses or paying a $250 fine.
Seriously, thanks for the background. And Dain, I have been to Roaring River, MO once on a family trip. Not a fan. I like the concept, but crazy place to try and FF.
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Post by dainw on Nov 23, 2017 17:47:24 GMT -6
What time of the year did you go? I’d avoid it like the plague march-October. During C&R season though it’s a blast.
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Post by danimal on Nov 23, 2017 20:33:42 GMT -6
What time of the year did you go? I’d avoid it like the plague march-October. During C&R season though it’s a blast. Yup, that place is a nightmare during the warmer months. I literally almost got in a fight there several years back.
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Post by captwoody on Nov 23, 2017 21:12:04 GMT -6
I agree with Jonbo, it is not realistic to think the river will be managed just for us. Add in tne fact that much of the LMFR is located in a state park just adds more likelyhood that general recreation will be a priority. I do agree with others that stronger enforcement of existing regulations would be a realistic expectation.
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Post by jonbo on Nov 24, 2017 9:18:10 GMT -6
I agree with all of you calling for greater enforcement of current regulations. It certainly needs to be "job one" for the policing agencies. After attending the meeting a couple of years back where it was decided to buy radios and a drone for the agencies so that they could coordinate their efforts more effectively, I find it a little shocking that poaching seems to be worse than ever and enforcement less evident. I can only assume that those purchases didn't address their main problem which is most likely that of being spread too thin. I would like to know what their sequence of game law priorities is, and who determines that, and how we can influence that in our favor.
I wasn't meaning to discouraged you, Todd, in your dreaming. I think it's important to think big picture, and what we'd like to see the river become. The LMF that was a great fly-fishing river didn't become so just by accident. It became so, I would think, at least partly because someone had a vision of what it could be and somehow were able to influence the decision making and application. I was just trying to add a little practicality. If we ever do get down to making coordinated suggestions with somehow a chance of actually having some kind of influence, that our "vision" will have to account for the needs and rights of the greater number of fisher-folks who fish differently than we do. That this can be done is proven to me by the absolutely splendid way the river was designed "antediluvian(?!)" It accommodated both groups very, very well, IMO. Someone made it that way, on purpose. It can be done again, even accounting for what seems to be a larger plan to attract more visitors to the area. I think so, anyhow.
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Post by todd13 on Nov 24, 2017 19:20:52 GMT -6
Oh nobody discouraged me. All the points are more practical than mine. I just had a vision and know it is just that a 'vision'. I know most of what I think about are small dollars and it its true, there would be plenty of complaining, but they would move on and more environmentally conscientious people would replace them in the park. Thus the park would get an upgrade.
Maybe I will offer a box of fish sticks to the next guy I see keeping 2 strings of fish!
And Dain, I hit the Roaring River in March...went to visit my daughter. No bueno IMO.
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Post by cigarsnjeeps on Nov 26, 2017 7:43:16 GMT -6
Maybe you locals up there can start a Trout Unltd chapter for BB? That might bring resources is TU to you or at least assistance in the form of resources, etc. Down here we have the Guadalupe River TU chapter which does great things to manage the trout in the river. The chapter stocks the river (in addition to the Texas Parks and Wildlife and negotiates with the water authority for flows, regulations, etc. Membership money goes towards managing the fishery. Just a thought.
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Post by golferjeff on Nov 26, 2017 8:28:55 GMT -6
The TU angle has been attempted. The 89'er chapter is the area's representative. That is why we have the LMFRF to steward the river a bit. We try to help, but have no real power. Pat is in near constant communication with ODWC and park staff, but all of the above entanglements result in what we have today - a decent trout stream that is mismanaged and misguided.
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Post by mirvc17 on Nov 26, 2017 19:02:10 GMT -6
I keep hoping that maybe someday the LMFR would show up as a semi-major initiative for TU. Unfortunately it hasn’t. It’s great that they are battling issues like cold, clean water, wild steelhead, and various river issues back east and other projects but we need more eyes and ears on the status of our river.
The survey didn’t seem to help...
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Post by kovaku on Nov 27, 2017 7:13:46 GMT -6
Yeah, Kovaku, I live right by the Lil' Mo'. It actually may be closer for you than the LMF. While not near the trout stream that the LMF is when the LMF is "right", it's still a fine one. You should try it. Camping in winter is at the "Swaha" campground on Lake Greeson, about a mile from the fly-fishing. There's about 4 access points nearby. I can tell you a lot more if you want to PM me. Anyhow, I'm sure the LMF will be fixed up pretty soon. It was great before the 2015 floods, still good there after. But it's been one setback after another for sometime. Thanks for the info. I will look into it.
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Post by fvanek on Nov 28, 2017 20:45:22 GMT -6
It looks like they have opened one of the gates 3 inches.
Gate Changes:
Monday, 27 Nov 17 at 1:00 p.m. Pool Elevation = 591.22 feet. New Gate Discharge was 102 cubic feet per second. New Gate Settings: 1 Tainter Gate open 0.25 FEET
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Post by turfdawg on Nov 28, 2017 20:51:01 GMT -6
It looks like they have opened one of the gates 3 inches. Gate Changes: Monday, 27 Nov 17 at 1:00 p.m. Pool Elevation = 591.22 feet. New Gate Discharge was 102 cubic feet per second. New Gate Settings: 1 Tainter Gate open 0.25 FEET Great news. I'll check it out in the morning.
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