PSA: We are giving away too much info on here

[dainw]

So one thing I’ve noticed in the 4 or 5 years or however long I’ve been a member of this board, is that we’ll see the same question asked over and over again. One of the most popular questions asked goes something like this....

“First time to fish in broken bow, can you tell me where and how to fish....”

I’ll give the regular members of this board credit, you guys are some of the nicest folks around, but I think you’re almost too nice sometimes. I personally don’t think we should be so forthcoming with information. I think there is a fine line to strike between being gracious to new members, and giving away the farm with information. Most of the time, the person asking the question is a brand new member that day and it’s both their first and last post on the board, yet we are happy to make fly recommendations, send them links to maps, hatch charts etc...it’s crazy to me. One guy last week even asked what rock he should be standing on and we still gave him info! (I thought JR’s response was very appropriate by the way).

My first question is, do any of you guys get tired of answering the same question over and over again? If you look back through the archives of the forum, there are maps, fly patterns, hatch charts, hotel recommendations, and trip reports for just about every month of the year, not to mention this same question being asked and answered probably two dozen times. I would say my biggest issue with the fact that this question keeps being asked is that it’s lazy. Between this forum and all the other publicly available information out there, the question shouldn’t keep being asked.

One thing I notice every time I visit the LMF is how much more crowded the river seems to get. It used to be that it was only crowded in the summer. Then it was only crowded in the winter on nice days. Then it was only crowded on weekends. Now it’s just plain crowded. Suffice it say, there aren’t many secrets left on the river. All of this pressure has created one of the more technical tailwater fisheries east of the Rockies, maybe in the country. What this means is that every time you visit the river, you are competing with people for river space and pickier and pickier fish. I don’t want them armed with the same knowledge and expertise that I had to put my hard earned time in on the river to get. The more we put that information out there in the world, the more people will show up to the river with it. Ever wonder why the hot fly last year isn’t working so good this year? Check out the video of how to tie it down below.

Look I’m not saying we need to be jerks to people at all. In fact, the members of this forum do a great job at being stewards of the sport. All I’m saying is there is a way to be gracious to people while kindly pointing them in the direction of all the information that is already out there if they are willing to look for it.

[huntnfish2much]

I appreciate you being supportive of my viewpoint. I agree one hundred percent that, if a person would spend a few minutes (or an hour or two) researching this message board, the exact questions asked are answered over and over and over again!

Not that I’m any subject matter expert, but I have fished Beavers Bend for over 30 years. I haven’t caught the huge, beautiful fish that I see Golfer Jeff posting pictures of, but I have caught my share of respectful beauties.

Your statement about the fishery becoming more and more crowded ALL the time is spot on. I have been there when I haven’t seen another person all day long, but that was many years ago. Maybe once COVID is under control, and people are back in their offices, the cabins and campgrounds won’t be full all the time. Maybe then there will be fewer people in the park during the week. Maybe?

There are usually spots to fish where you’re not crossing lines with someone else, but the most popular spots can be frustrating.

Nothing compares with spending time on the river. A person won’t learn which rock to stand on by reading in a message board. A person will only learn by actually going and trying different spots and techniques. Hiring a guide can and will shorten the learning curve.

JR

[dainw]

Absolutely right JR. There is no substitute for time on the water. As far as the LMF goes, there are plenty of fish everywhere in the river that you are allowed to legally fish in zone I, regardless of whether or not they’ve stocked recently. If you can read water, you should be able to show up and find some fish. That post the other day, I dunno, kind of straw that broke the camel’s back for me. I mean, half the fun of going to a new river is showing up and exploring it, trying to crack the code. If I’m going to a new river, I’ll do all the research I can ahead of time as far as access and hatches and all that, but if you want someone to tell you what rock to stand on, that’s what a guide is for (which I do hire guides from time to time, especially when my wife or inexperience fly fishers are with me).

[huntnfish2much]

Dain, you and I are certainly on the same page here. I have fished LMF so many years, I don’t remember the last time I went and flat didn’t catch fish. There have been times, but not recently.

A few years back, I went to the Little Red near Heber Springs, Arkansas. The hours of reading blogs and message boards and even a couple of books were well spent, but nothing equalled the time spent on the water fishing and exploring.

I caught fish. Lots of them.... stocker rainbows by the dozens; some decent browns; a few pretty nice fish.

I didn’t need someone to tell me where the fish were stocked. Reading the water, just as you said is the same just about anywhere you go.

JR

[golferjeff]

Yeah, sometimes depends on my mood. Occasionally I will give away some intel if they guy or girl seems honest. other times I say just what dain says - go read the previous posts!. I have had guys see me (and Magick) on the river and stop to say thank you for the detail I put in some posts. On my last trip, a guy that netted a good fish for me recognized me. So I try to walk the line.

And as you all point out... nothing equals spending time on the water. Dain gave me two minutes of intel on a place in Missouri and I went and caught some beautiful fish, after figuring out what they were eating and at what depth. New water, never been there, had to rely on he and Aaron's stories and pics. Glad I did. Great experience.

So..... what are the biting on this week??  

[mirvc17]

Dain,

Totally agree with you...

It does remind me of a topic I hear all the time on podcasts and such. That is the topic of crowded rivers. But it's funny because the same people that are bitching about crowded rivers then have folks on their shows or engage in the topic of bringing more "young" people to the sport of fly fishing. So which is it? Bitch about overcrowded rivers or bring in the next "generation" and crowd said river? That said, I do hope my boys will take to the sport more as they get older--but that's a family affair.

This could offend some, but I don't give a rat's @ss about trying to convince young people to get into fly fishing. If they are generally curious about it and like being outside, that could alter my opinion slightly. Because trust me, I do plenty of complaining about the crowds at times. I don't even venture to the river on a weekend--it's just insane. As far as secrets go, I don't think there are too many left as far as the S. Platte River is concerned. I think some of the guides like Dorsey and some others probably have a few tricks up their sleeves. I certainly appreciate him sharing his knowledge of the river as it's helped me catch fish on probably the most heavily pressured river in all of Colorado.

But I digress...

Bottom line, the LMF is "out there" and will probably only continue to get worse over time. Lack of rule enforcement makes it an easy target for those looking to stock up as well.

[PapaBear]

Maybe a separate Board (like the LMF Stream Flows) that cannot be commented on and only added to by admin. Have a link to the map of the stream, maybe a hatch chart, and add a link to Fly Shop Guide Service. Title it "New Member Read First". When someone "new" comes along, refer them to that board. If they say they already read it, tell them to get their feet wet or hire a guide.

[dainw]

Dec 15, 2020 15:52:18 GMT -6 PapaBear said:

Maybe a separate Board (like the LMF Stream Flows) that cannot be commented on and only added to by admin. Have a link to the map of the stream, maybe a hatch chart, and add a link to Fly Shop Guide Service. Title it "New Member Read First". When someone "new" comes along, refer them to that board. If they say they already read it, tell them to get their feet wet or hire a guide.

I don’t know if you ever check out Reddit. I read r/bourbon and about every 10 posts or so someone asks a similar question, “new to bourbon, what do you recommend?” There is a BOT the mods have created that auto answers that question for the user. People can still comment on the thread, but it also lets everyone know this question gets asked a lot.

[dainw]

Dec 15, 2020 15:46:34 GMT -6 mirvc17 said:

Dain,

Totally agree with you...

It does remind me of a topic I hear all the time on podcasts and such. That is the topic of crowded rivers. But it's funny because the same people that are bitching about crowded rivers then have folks on their shows or engage in the topic of bringing more "young" people to the sport of fly fishing. So which is it? Bitch about overcrowded rivers or bring in the next "generation" and crowd said river? That said, I do hope my boys will take to the sport more as they get older--but that's a family affair.

This could offend some, but I don't give a rat's @ss about trying to convince young people to get into fly fishing. If they are generally curious about it and like being outside, that could alter my opinion slightly. Because trust me, I do plenty of complaining about the crowds at times. I don't even venture to the river on a weekend--it's just insane. As far as secrets go, I don't think there are too many left as far as the S. Platte River is concerned. I think some of the guides like Dorsey and some others probably have a few tricks up their sleeves. I certainly appreciate him sharing his knowledge of the river as it's helped me catch fish on probably the most heavily pressured river in all of Colorado.

But I digress...

Bottom line, the LMF is "out there" and will probably only continue to get worse over time. Lack of rule enforcement makes it an easy target for those looking to stock up as well.

I mean, don’t get me wrong, I don’t go to the LMF for solitude. I expect it to be crowded and that’s one of the things that I think adds to the challenge of fishing it. It’s definitely out there and known at this point and the growth of the area as a tourist destination doesn’t seem to be helping the crowds either. There probably aren’t too many more secrets to be had, but I remember a time when Peter would delete my posts if I mentioned the wrong fly on here.

I also remember a time a few years back (preflood I think) when Jeff had a great day at what used to be a lesser known area of the river that’s only fish able when the logs are out, and he would not tell me where it was. Guess I didn’t seem honest who knows lol. I can tell you this though, I had a lot of fun finally figuring where that spot was. Took me about 3 more trips to figure how to catch fish out of that spot. It gets mentioned now all the time and we also tell people how to get there. Same with the islands in zone II. Used to be a lesser known spot you could go to and get away from the crowds, but not anymore. I literally saw directions to it on a post last week I think. I say all that to say this. A lot of the knowledge that members on this board have comes from hard earned experience and time on the water. You can’t put a price on it, so why give it away for free? I’m glad to hear that we have occasionally run into someone we have advice to on the board, but it seems like more often than not we give someone advice and there is no trip report, no pictures, no story, no further posts.

[turfdawg]

I know some people on here would probably like to choke me because I really don’t mind giving advice, give away plenty of flies, set up people’s leaders, etc. I guess it’s just my nature. Like Jeff, there has been times where I have let kids use my rod to catch a couple fish. I do know what you are talking about though. I think that the main thing that bothers me is the people who b$tch about there not being enough fish in the river. If you can’t catch them it’s not our fault

[wadeaddict]

Hello All,

I'm one of the new guys that posted a couple weeks ago and got a ton of advice for zone 2. Of course the power plant guys  were releasing when I was there - I went anyway - not good and I know you guys know what I mean.  

I'm headed back this Sunday for 3 days fishing with my 14 year old son. It's our first fishing trip together and it's important to me that I atleast figure out how to hook him up once or twice. Considering I have only been fly fishing for 4 months myself (age 66) and only been to LMFR 3 times - I am a little anxious about my performance as his "guide". But I'm up to the pressure. 

The "spirit" of the guys on this website that tried to help me previously is greatly appreciated. HOWEVER - if I was in your shoes I would prioritize protecting my lifestyle and precious resource above all else. Where is the line to draw? Who knows such things. All I can say as a newbie is that I completely respect the different points of view and the healthy discussion about sharing too much info.

One comment that I see you guys making several times is that "new folks" like me need to spend time on the river and figure things out themselves - and put in the work. No free lunch boys. New visitors should not expect or be allowed to look under the hood too deeply. General help is good - but specifics should be withheld - especially as it relates to your "special" locations. New visitors should do the research and boots on the ground to learn the river themselves. 

So far I have hiked the full up and full down of the spillway with my wife and son. I have played around Cold Hole (no luck) a couple times and punched a bunch of indicators with droppers up against the Bluffs (better).  Waded in "above and below" the bridge at swim area - nice and slick - challenging. Some good though.

I'm figuring it out and earning it. I no longer am asking you guys for anything. You helped me get started and that is greatly appreciated. How you help others get started?That's a good question. My suggestion is be helpful and careful. You are in charge of giving away what you have earned with your own time and effort :-)

NOW - for those that read all my stuff - helped me or did not help me. I have something for you. Something back to you boys and ladies. I own 3 golf courses in Dallas. Sky Creek, Bridlewood and Westridge. Any time you and your foursome want to be my guest - I would love to host you. Just contact me by email [e-mail].

I do expect to hear from Golfer Jeff :-)  
           
    

[mirvc17]

Dain,

Fine...I won’t be giving you any intel on the S Platte since you haven’t asked for it. And I won’t take Jeff over there either, cuz he’s guilty too.

[dainw]

Wadeaddict...thank you for the comment. I hope my comment hasn’t discouraged you from posting anymore or sharing on the forum, and I truly hope you don’t feel bad it. It sounds like you’re putting in the leg work on the river to find fish and that’s great. If everyone we gave advice to came back and posted a trip report and told us about their experience the way you did, I’d feel better about giving out info.

At the end of the day, it’s a difficult balance to find. Putting out information about the river is kind of the reason we have the forum, but at the same there is almost too much information about the river sent. One thing I think we can do is be mindful of how we tell somebody something. If you reply on a public forum with a bunch of information, you’re not just sharing with that one person, you’re sharing with the world. You can always send someone a private message. Keep in mind, for the most part, we are just a bunch of guys who like to fish, but there are people that depend on the river for their livelihood as well. I think the best advice you can give anyone new to the river is to go see Eddie and Roberta at the fly shop. They’ll have more up to date intel on what’s working than anyone and it’s always good to support local business. If you really want to shortcut it, hire one of the fly shop guides for a half day or a full day trip. It’s not cheap but it’s money well spent if you want to shorten the learning curve.

[huntnfish2much]

Dec 15, 2020 15:52:18 GMT -6 PapaBear said:

Maybe a separate Board (like the LMF Stream Flows) that cannot be commented on and only added to by admin. Have a link to the map of the stream, maybe a hatch chart, and add a link to Fly Shop Guide Service. Title it "New Member Read First". When someone "new" comes along, refer them to that board. If they say they already read it, tell them to get their feet wet or hire a guide.

Maybe I should change my moniker to ‘WallFly’ or ‘TrollFly’ or something, because I don’t post nearly as much as some of you guys. I like to read what people post more than anything. A person could come onto this website and spend a little time reading the threads, especially in the ‘General’ and ‘Fishing Reports’ threads, and have enough information to get into fish!

There is a TON of information on this website! Since there are so many golfers here, I will put it this way.... You didn’t pick up a golf club and immediately start hitting the ball like a pro. I know absolutely nothing about golf. At 60 plus years old, I don’t think I want to start learning either. LOL My point is that a golfer practices over and over, but the first time on a new course is a learning experience.

You can ask all the questions and read all the information and try to put a gameplan together, but putting time in on the river (or the golf course) is the only way to perfect your game.

A lot has been said in this thread about very little. I feel as if my less-than-cordial response to a newbie to the forum stirred the pot. I don’t want to alienate a newcomer to the forum. This message board is designed to share information.

I agree that the LMF is over crowded. It’s not going to get better. My hope is that occasionally, I can drive up for a day or two and catch some fish without having to wait on a turn to get into the water. Maybe my kayak will help me get away from the crowds.

JR

[ranger1965]

So was I the only one that thought that “New to River” post was the return of TroutYuppie?

[FlyAndStream]

Nope, I thought it was someone just trolling us here as well.

[wadeaddict]

Yo Mivc17 - hope you see this. I just picked up your remark on S Platte. Don't tell Dain - but you have to tell me. I'm headed back to Estes park in 10 days and want to do some Winter fishing at some tailwater locations. I'm lucky and only live 1 mile from just below Estes Dam where the water stays thawed all Winter - Big Thompson.


BUT - I definitely want to take some day trip s and was looking at S Platte - you gotta give up the goods dude :-)

Addict

[jonbo]

Does anyone know what day they stock?

[huntnfish2much]

Dec 16, 2020 18:18:19 GMT -6 jonbo said:

Does anyone know what day they stock?

Almost always on a day that ends in Y.

JR

[mirvc17]

Dec 16, 2020 17:17:56 GMT -6 wadeaddict said:

Yo Mivc17 - hope you see this. I just picked up your remark on S Platte. Don't tell Dain - but you have to tell me. I'm headed back to Estes park in 10 days and want to do some Winter fishing at some tailwater locations. I'm lucky and only live 1 mile from just below Estes Dam where the water stays thawed all Winter - Big Thompson.


BUT - I definitely want to take some day trip s and was looking at S Platte - you gotta give up the goods dude :-)

Addict

Ha..cool. We like to stay at Whispering Pines just outside of town there.

There’s not much in terms of “goods” right now around Deckers. Much of the river is/was frozen, the flows are a very low 66 and projected to stay that way due to Cheesman’s levels. Water temp when I went last Thurs was 34 and 36 with fish in “survival” mode. Until the weather warms and the water temps improve, fish will be hard to catch. You might find a midge hatch around 1pm where you’ll find some surface feeders in the smooth pools and runs.

How’s that??

[jonbo]

Sounds like whenever I visit relatives in Durango. It's always for Thanksgiving. At that time it's too late in the season to fish anything but the San Juan below the Navajo Dam. That's awesome in itself, so I'm really lucky. I'd dearly love to fish the "Juan" in Colorado where it's a free-stone stream, or other really fine streams around the area, but everyone tells me they're just not productive at that time of year. I do go and fool around the Animus in town a little bit, usually. I got into something really big last time, probably one of the brooder rainbows they released, but couldn't do anything with it. I'm itching to go, like, in August, but that's not a practical time for me to "vacay". Yeah, wadeaddict, it sounds like you're "stuck" with fishing the tailwater this time.

[dainw]

Hey you guys know there is a whole sub forum called “non local waters” where you can post about fishing in Colorado all day long right?

[FlyAndStream]

Hey, y'all dainw is right – let's not use his thread for ongoing discussions of fishing non-local waters, for which there's a dedicated place on this forum to do so (Non-Local Waters).

Also, I'm sure most all of us agree that his opening post is important to those of us who fish the LMFR, so we don't want to take away from that by quickly digressing into something that is off-topic here.

----- 

dainw in response to your post, I hear ya, and I've certainly been guilty of this at times, but there is a time and place to share intel, and like you mentioned its not in this highly public forum space for anyone doing a Google search to read. We should all take this to heart.

Many of you know that I have been more than willing to share simple secrets that I know to help you catch more fish on the LMFR and elsewhere, but that has and should come through time spent on the water and getting to know someone and their intentions, not posting for anyone to see.

I have noticed, as Dain has mentioned, certain flies don't do as well as previously, this is due to the old adage that "loose lips sink ships", but that's OK, thankfully there's certainly more than a single way to skin a cat, and I've learned to keep most secrets to myself.

Moral of the story here, don't feed those who would ask for a parking spot, rock to stand on, and fly to swing – chances are they probably won't even be fishing this river one-year from now, or contributing to the local fly fishing community we all love.

Another thing, catching quality fish on this river can become technical at times. You may be parked in the right spot, standing on the right rock, and drifting the right fly, but a weary fish will almost always eat only a good drift presented at proper depth – I can't being to tell you how much I know this to be true on the LMFR.

Therefore, I always recommend a newcomer simply start at the fly shop anyways. Chat with coach, buy some recommended flies, hire a guide for a half-day in which you'd learn more about the river and how to catch its fish than you would scouring this forum and spending countless hours solo on the water anyways.

I mean, with as much experience and knowledge as breeden3 has about fishing and this river, there's no reason why this guy should have a day off unless he absolutely needs one – go hire a guide.

[hankinsfly]

Hello all. This is a very engaging thread. I feel like a newcomer as I haven’t fished LMF in a year and haven’t been participating here (mostly because I haven’t fished LMF in a year and have no input.) I, too have given specific rocks to stand on and times of day to fish and snags to toss into in various watersheds- but mostly only to people I actually know and have fished with. I think Dain is on to something here. Direct people to the water! I learned to fish on my own, with my dad teaching me to tie a clinch knot (which I still use to this day, just the way he taught me). I am the first serious fly fisher in my family. I went fly fishing for trout a LOT without catching anything, then catching one or two, then a few more. LMF, Blue River. I’m still not the greatest fly fisher, but I can catch a few and have a lot of fun doing it. Every great day I’ve ever had on the LMF in terms of numbers, I came about it on my own.

Most people, I think, have some fishing experience under their belt, whether it be trout or pond bass. They’ve done some fishing before. Those guys ought to be able figure it out on their own without asking which rock to stand on in a public forum. They have the ability to. Maybe you won’t catch a ton your first couple of trips, but because you work harder for it, you appreciate it more. You have got to get out on the water and learn how to fish. The instant gratification, instant piggy-backing off others’ hard-earned experience in public web forums, blogs, etc is the root of the problem we see with over-crowding. People don’t cherish it and come back to contribute or whatever because it came cheaply and quickly. I’ve learned the hard way to avoid stepping on the light-colored bedrock.

There probably are a few people who have not really fished much before at all, took a family trip to Beavers Bend, and saw “those fly fishers making those pretty casts in the middle of the river,” and wanted to do it. They probably should not get out there on their own and learn. They need a guide or a friend that can show them. All these types, myself included, could definitely benefit from hiring a guide at Beavers Bend Fly Shop.

I try to look at times I’ve done the same- benefited from information out out there on the interwebs. What this message board should do is give a newcomer to the sport or the river, GENERAL information. What the different zones are, what they can expect in terms of water type, how to not die, and the regulations. What bugs have been seen lately I’d say is permissible. Sharing your fishing reports gets newcomers (like myself) fired up and want to be there. That probably does drum up business for the shop. But you don’t have to give it all away.

Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion. Hope everyone has been doing well. Oh, and I think I’m going to go down after the holidays. Camping will be the order, as will coffee at dawn, frozen wading boots, and good cigars.

[czoscar]

“Therefore, I always recommend a newcomer simply start at the fly shop anyways. Chat with coach, buy some recommended flies, hire a guide for a half-day in which you'd learn more about the river and how to catch its fish than you would scouring this forum and spending countless hours solo on the water anyways.

I mean, with as much experience and knowledge as breeden3 has about fishing and this river, there's no reason why this guy should have a day off unless he absolutely needs one – go hire a guide.”

====================================================================================================================================================
Amen. Not only is Peter experienced and knowledgeable but also a great natural instructor, patient, and just a great person as well. And always visit the Fly Shop to support Coach Eddie and. Roberta - quality folks always ready to help.

Just saying.......