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Post by golferjeff on Dec 21, 2020 12:12:13 GMT -6
Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion. Hope everyone has been doing well. Oh, and I think I’m going to go down after the holidays. Camping will be the order, as will coffee at dawn, frozen wading boots, and good cigars. I might be coerced to join ya'! And I won't give away information in the meantime.
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Post by jonbo on Dec 21, 2020 12:56:41 GMT -6
Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion. Hope everyone has been doing well. Oh, and I think I’m going to go down after the holidays. Camping will be the order, as will coffee at dawn, frozen wading boots, and good cigars. I might be coerced to join ya'! And I won't give away information in the meantime. I can come visit for a spell, probably. Let me know! Hey, there's this thing called "Trout-Camp"... Oh, shoot! Am I derailing a thread again?
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Post by onlyontuesday on Dec 21, 2020 22:39:05 GMT -6
As one of the newer guys - a couple of years on the river, I have to agree with the comments above. Although I'd like get all the secrets for free, I've done best with hiring guides from the shop a couple of times a year and paying to play then taking the info I learn and spending a few days trying to replicate it. Like anything else I've done, commitment to task is what pays off. One contrary note, it's helpful to hear the general location and spot names - I'd like to continue to broaden my experience on the river and I might be in a conversation in the shop or on the water and hear name and have no point of reference. The interest is not in knowing everyone's secret spot and how to fish it, but the general lay of the land so I can participate with a flicker of intelligence and roll my experience in old water onto new water and see what works. Thanks all for your posts - you have enriched my experience.
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Post by czoscar on Dec 22, 2020 7:26:17 GMT -6
As one of the newer guys - a couple of years on the river, I have to agree with the comments above. Although I'd like get all the secrets for free, I've done best with hiring guides from the shop a couple of times a year and paying to play then taking the info I learn and spending a few days trying to replicate it. Like anything else I've done, commitment to task is what pays off. One contrary note, it's helpful to hear the general location and spot names - I'd like to continue to broaden my experience on the river and I might be in a conversation in the shop or on the water and hear name and have no point of reference. The interest is not in knowing everyone's secret spot and how to fish it, but the general lay of the land so I can participate with a flicker of intelligence and roll my experience in old water onto new water and see what works. Thanks all for your posts - you have enriched my experience. Well said 👍
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Post by texasflycaster on Dec 22, 2020 9:33:31 GMT -6
I have observed over many years that there are a few solutions to giving away the farm. One, could be a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) at top - and refer the overly curious to that. Or, ADMIN intervention to cut that thread off. Probably the least effective method (a real board killer) is to be obtuse toward some innocent soul looking for the same things we were looking for in our beginnings. And we have no idea who that beginner is, right? Could be a kid? Or someone who needs special attention to begin with? (I've encountered all those persons in the past.) These are unusually good, strong boards on this site in my opinion!
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Post by jonbo on Dec 22, 2020 10:00:37 GMT -6
As one of the newer guys - a couple of years on the river, I have to agree with the comments above. Although I'd like get all the secrets for free, I've done best with hiring guides from the shop a couple of times a year and paying to play then taking the info I learn and spending a few days trying to replicate it. Like anything else I've done, commitment to task is what pays off. One contrary note, it's helpful to hear the general location and spot names - I'd like to continue to broaden my experience on the river and I might be in a conversation in the shop or on the water and hear name and have no point of reference. The interest is not in knowing everyone's secret spot and how to fish it, but the general lay of the land so I can participate with a flicker of intelligence and roll my experience in old water onto new water and see what works. Thanks all for your posts - you have enriched my experience. That's what I feel I'm giving out when I give out information, general areas and the names some of us call them by, not specific rocks to stand on or creases to cast into. Others seem to disagree.
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Post by dainw on Dec 22, 2020 12:57:11 GMT -6
I’m sorry if people feel like they are being called out here. At the very least I would hope that the conversation has been thought provoking. A general area is “spillway creek” or even “upper spillway creek” or “lower spillway creek.” Another example would be above evening hole or hickory etc. These are all well know areas that can accommodate multiple anglers and show up on publicly available maps. An example of something that is too specific would be day use or the islands in zone II. These are areas that used to be off limits to talk about here but now they are spoken about freely on the board. You used to be able to go to one of these spots and get away from the crowds and now they get just as much traffic as anywhere. The same goes for flies. I’m old enough to remember when it was off limits to talk about a Pat’s Rubberlegs on here and that fly used to murder fish but not anymore.
Maybe I’m being too crotchety who knows. In my ripe old age of 34, maybe I need to learn to relax and get over it I dunno. I just think there’s a fine line between pointing someone in the right direction and giving away “secrets.” Sure some of this stuff is going to be figured out by people eventually. It’s a small river that sees a lot of traffic, so there aren’t going to be many secrets, but it’s just as easy to point someone in the direction of a hatch chart as it is to link them a YouTube video showing them how to tie the hot fly on the river. For someone new to the river, I would say that the entirety of zone I from where you are legally allowed to start fishing above the powerhouse to the base of the dam holds fish. If you can read water, you should be able to find fish. If you can’t read water, there are plenty of books available and that’s also what guides are for. Besides, I think my gripe isn’t so much that we are giving people information as it is the manner in which we’re doing it. Sometimes all this stuff if better sent in a private message. If you post it on the board, you’re not just giving that information to the person who asked for it, you’re putting it out on a public forum that doesn’t even require a user name to view.
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Post by jonbo on Dec 22, 2020 13:40:40 GMT -6
Dain, you might go further back at LMF and the forum than I do. I actually don't remember a time it wasn't crowded. It was only in the past couple of seasons, though, that I have found spin-fishermen all over the Evening Hole making it a little like any other fishing area anywhere. I think that the Red Zone restriction being abandoned has a lot to do with that. So, I don't really remember any "good old days" of less people anywhere, very much. Now, when I talk about only giving directions, etc. about general areas, I was actually thinking of areas like the Day Use Area or the Islands. I had figured that was rough enough information, not overly specific. I realize now that others feel that's telling too much. To tell the truth, I'd be tempted to write you off as a crack-pot on this issue if it were just you. You know, no one likes much to be told they should do something differently, including me. But I see others basically agree with your point of view. That's not just on this site, either. On one completely different forum, about a different watershed, I said some things about a couple of creeks or something. They corrected me and told me not to talk about that stuff unless it were in private message. I said "what's the matter?" They said that's how the good places get over-run. Aaron used the same word they did, "hot-spot", or something. So, I'll defer to y'all and be a lot more vague in future, or try to.
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Post by dainw on Dec 22, 2020 14:50:18 GMT -6
Dain, you might go further back at LMF and the forum than I do. I actually don't remember a time it wasn't crowded. It was only in the past couple of seasons, though, that I have found spin-fishermen all over the Evening Hole making it a little like any other fishing area anywhere. I think that the Red Zone restriction being abandoned has a lot to do with that. So, I don't really remember any "good old days" of less people anywhere, very much. Now, when I talk about only giving directions, etc. about general areas, I was actually thinking of areas like the Day Use Area or the Islands. I had figured that was rough enough information, not overly specific. I realize now that others feel that's telling too much. To tell the truth, I'd be tempted to write you off as a crack-pot on this issue if it were just you. You know, no one likes much to be told they should do something differently, including me. But I see others basically agree with your point of view. That's not just on this site, either. On one completely different forum, about a different watershed, I said some things about a couple of creeks or something. They corrected me and told me not to talk about that stuff unless it were in private message. I said "what's the matter?" They said that's how the good places get over-run. Aaron used the same word they did, "hot-spot", or something. So, I'll defer to y'all and be a lot more vague in future, or try to. Like I said, I’m not trying to call you out. There’s not a whole lot you can say that isn’t already known at this point. I’d just be hesitant especially on fly selection to put too much out there publicly bc that can ruin a fly pretty quick. I know what forums you’re referencing and they can be almost A-holes about it, especially when it comes to smallmouth creeks.
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Post by jonbo on Dec 22, 2020 15:28:22 GMT -6
Oh I know, but I was conscious that when it started being discussed that I was one of the main ones who would put info on the open board. No worries, maaing! Actually the other area I'm talking about is the Great Smoky Mountain National Park. Because my family likes to vacation there, I seem to get a chance to fish it every few years. I researched and found the names of creeks that supposedly hold "native" brookies, or "specks". When I posted on a fairly public board asking questions about these creeks, some guys were like, "Shut-up man! You're hot-spotting!(?)" I'm like, "Oh! My bad! I just found these doing internet research." They were like, "Well please, let it stay that way. Our spots will get over-run otherwise.". So I took down the references I'd made.
I've tried smallmouth fishing once or twice, but haven't begun to figure it out.
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Post by dainw on Dec 22, 2020 16:24:00 GMT -6
Oh yeah lol I can see guys over there being protective of some of those brookie creeks. Smallmouth guys are the same way. Good way to know that if they are telling to take it down that those are probably some pretty good spots.
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Post by hankinsfly on Dec 22, 2020 18:03:22 GMT -6
Well, I was gonna ask what the hot fly is. Guess I’ll have to figure it out on my own...
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Post by jonbo on Dec 22, 2020 19:29:35 GMT -6
Well, I was gonna ask what the hot fly is. Guess I’ll have to figure it out on my own... Try a Hot Spot Christmas Candy Cane Midge.
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Post by hankinsfly on Dec 22, 2020 19:36:35 GMT -6
Well, I was gonna ask what the hot fly is. Guess I’ll have to figure it out on my own... Try a Hot Spot Christmas Candy Cane Midge. Sounds sweet
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Post by freebird on Dec 27, 2020 13:48:23 GMT -6
Dain, Fine...I won’t be giving you any intel on the S Platte since you haven’t asked for it. And I won’t take Jeff over there either, cuz he’s guilty too. HA!! I love the S Platte and actually use most of the same setups that I use in LMF and its worked great for me!
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Post by greyghost on Dec 28, 2020 8:32:53 GMT -6
I'm one of the lucky ones who fished the LMF in the late 80s through 20teens. In the early days when Sid owned the fly shop there wasn't much FF info shared on this forum. I'd go to the shop and ask which flies were working, buy some flies and some tippet and that was the extent of shared knowledge. I taught myself to fly fish here and I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. I got to know the river well and had my favorite spots and kept it to myself. I earned that knowledge and had fun learning. I wouldnt deprive anyone else of that pleasure. The floods washed all of that away, it's a completely different river now. I haven't been fishing there in several years. The river that taught me so much no longer exists.So, I never shared info but I wasnt being completely selfish, learning on your own is a big part of what makes FF so satisfying.
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Post by FlyAndStream on Dec 28, 2020 9:19:43 GMT -6
Well put man, I would just add one thing, it’s an entirely new river now to learn and experience the same thing over again.
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Post by onlyontuesday on Dec 28, 2020 19:25:14 GMT -6
I'm one of the lucky ones who fished the LMF in the late 80s through 20teens. In the early days when Sid owned the fly shop there wasn't much FF info shared on this forum. I'd go to the shop and ask which flies were working, buy some flies and some tippet and that was the extent of shared knowledge. I taught myself to fly fish here and I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. I got to know the river well and had my favorite spots and kept it to myself. I earned that knowledge and had fun learning. I wouldnt deprive anyone else of that pleasure. The floods washed all of that away, it's a completely different river now. I haven't been fishing there in several years. The river that taught me so much no longer exists.So, I never shared info but I wasnt being completely selfish, learning on your own is a big part of what makes FF so satisfying. Agreed. Part of the enjoyment is figuring it out. It's not a destination, it's a journey. That's why we call it fishing and not catching. So, if you're out on the water and some mid-60's doofus who's only been fly fishing a couple of years asks you a question, be polite with the vague answer...
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Post by joelock74 on Dec 30, 2020 10:10:23 GMT -6
So I’m confused.... What Rock do I stand on? 😂
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Post by FlyAndStream on Dec 30, 2020 10:13:13 GMT -6
The smooth light colored ones just under the water surface.
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Post by coach33 on Dec 30, 2020 12:47:58 GMT -6
So I am new here but would like to chime in. I had NEVER fly fished before but 10 years ago my mother passed of cancer in my home state of NM and my brother came calling that July. We were both having a hard time and he invited me to the San Juan with him and a few buddies of his. Every year from that time we have met back at the Juan for a week at the end of July, one of the best weeks of my year by far ("Water Brothers"). I can honestly say, the first time I landed a 24 inch trout I was "hooked" to say the least. It has been a huge passion of mine. In that time these guys have met me here and we traveled down to the LMF river to fish, did not have much info but actually really enjoyed ourselves. I wanted to give you a small background on myself to let you all know I have fly fished for the last 10 years and it is a passion.
Now, that being said, personally, I will never understand all the "secrecy" and the hesitancy to give out information or help others. Seems selfish to me. I FELL IN LOVE with the art of fly fishing and when I get the opportunity to help others at the Juan it makes me feel great inside because I not only know I am helping someone succeed on the river but I may be also planting that seed for someone else to love the sport. I chuckle at the guides at the SJ that approach me and tell me "hey. I can tell you what kind of fly I am using and get you into some fish if you would like." "Here is my card" Then a few minutes later I pull in a 20+ inch brown. I understand how some may be territorial however as I stated above, if I am ever able to help someone else find spots, give fly information or just point them in the right direction I would be MORE THAN HAPPY. Someone (my brother and his friends) walked me through my first morning on the river and I am forever grateful. It gave me an opportunity to fall in love with the sport and also give me a place to go to get away from the world!! To each his own, I do not judge but as for this fly fisherman, I am happy to help whenever I can! (Wish I knew more about the LMF though!)
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Post by turfdawg on Dec 30, 2020 14:50:40 GMT -6
The smooth light colored ones just under the water surface. I foul hooked a couple there
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Post by dainw on Dec 30, 2020 16:00:07 GMT -6
So I am new here but would like to chime in. I had NEVER fly fished before but 10 years ago my mother passed of cancer in my home state of NM and my brother came calling that July. We were both having a hard time and he invited me to the San Juan with him and a few buddies of his. Every year from that time we have met back at the Juan for a week at the end of July, one of the best weeks of my year by far ("Water Brothers"). I can honestly say, the first time I landed a 24 inch trout I was "hooked" to say the least. It has been a huge passion of mine. In that time these guys have met me here and we traveled down to the LMF river to fish, did not have much info but actually really enjoyed ourselves. I wanted to give you a small background on myself to let you all know I have fly fished for the last 10 years and it is a passion. Now, that being said, personally, I will never understand all the "secrecy" and the hesitancy to give out information or help others. Seems selfish to me. I FELL IN LOVE with the art of fly fishing and when I get the opportunity to help others at the Juan it makes me feel great inside because I not only know I am helping someone succeed on the river but I may be also planting that seed for someone else to love the sport. I chuckle at the guides at the SJ that approach me and tell me "hey. I can tell you what kind of fly I am using and get you into some fish if you would like." "Here is my card" Then a few minutes later I pull in a 20+ inch brown. I understand how some may be territorial however as I stated above, if I am ever able to help someone else find spots, give fly information or just point them in the right direction I would be MORE THAN HAPPY. Someone (my brother and his friends) walked me through my first morning on the river and I am forever grateful. It gave me an opportunity to fall in love with the sport and also give me a place to go to get away from the world!! To each his own, I do not judge but as for this fly fisherman, I am happy to help whenever I can! (Wish I knew more about the LMF though!) Thank you for responding and sharing your experience. Appreciate you sharing something so personal with us. I would say as far as “secrecy” thing goes, I think everyone here is willing to help. There’s a difference between showing somebody something on the water and giving them a fly and posting the information on a public forum. This is a small tailwater and there aren’t many secrets left out there, but I think we should also be good stewards of the resource. The LMF has had issues with poachers. When you post information on a public forum, you aren’t just sharing that information with the person who asked for it, you’re sharing it with anybody that has internet access. When someone shows up for the first time on the board and asks for directions to the best rock to stand on, you don’t know who you’re dealing with. Could be someone who plans to catch and release, could be someone who plans to keep 30 fish who knows. There are other forums that I am a member of where you would have your screen name revoked for asking that question. This forum has been a great source of information for me in the short time I’ve been fly fishing. I’ve gotten everything from information on how to rig to advice on the best pair of sunglasses to buy. I hope it remains that way. I just think there’s a fine line between being a good resource and being a how to guide for poachers.
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Post by hankinsfly on Dec 30, 2020 21:05:30 GMT -6
What’s the best fly?
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Post by czoscar on Dec 31, 2020 9:15:28 GMT -6
Drains wrote
“Could be someone who plans to catch and release, could be someone who plans to keep 30 fish who knows. There are other forums that I am a member of where you would have your screen name revoked for asking that question.
This forum has been a great source of information for me in the short time I’ve been fly fishing. I’ve gotten everything from information on how to rig to advice on the best pair of sunglasses to buy. I hope it remains that way. I just think there’s a fine line between being a good resource and being a how to guide for poachers.”
——————————————————-
Guess I’ve been naive thinking we were all C&R in this sport for our diverse personal reasons and had not considered the reality of poachers. IMHO a large stretch of the LMFR should be strictly barbless and C&R but obviously, and the reality, we are a small minority of visitors to the park which is there for the benefit of many.
But back to poachers: from my few and brief visits it seems to me the Park Rangers are more interested in catching speeders on the roads than enforcing the fishing regulations. It would certainly benefit everyone to have a system to identify and report poachers but without apparent legal enforcement by Park Rangers what can we do? I’m not asking hypothetically but looking for suggestions. I would have no issue calling in any apparent violation I witnessed, but in my case anyway, I have no cellphone service anywhere in the park.
Any suggestions? Should this be a new and separate thread?
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