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Post by jonbo on Aug 15, 2022 6:20:19 GMT -6
Just.Can't.Seem.To.Quit. Well, I done done it. Went and bought me an Echo Shadow X. I got the 10' 3 wt. This is to replace in my arsenal my 3 wt Recon which I was not happy with euro-nymphing. The Recon is not sensititive on feel of strikes or bottom. Otherwise the Recon is a great rod. I mean, seriously, it is. The ShadX is supposed to provide significantly more feel. I keep trying to return to euro-nymphing because of Spillway Creek. All that pocket water seems to cry out for it. I need a way to get down quick in those deep, sudden pockets. I may be on a fool's errand with this, but I'm looking for a rod that I can tightline with adequately on Spillway, and cast a traditional line and leader adequately at the further downstream spots. Supposedly the ShadX will do both of these things. I don't want to try to keep up with 2 rods in one day of fishing. So, with my saved-up pocket money burning a hole, I splurged on the ShadX. This rod and reel setup I have chosen as a LMF, Beaver's Bend specialist to first fish, say, Cardiac Hill, then move down to the Evening Hole.
I have matched it with a Lamson Liquid 5+ reel. It balances nicely once you add 2 of the handle weights that come with the rod, but you do have to add them. I bought the 3 pack of reel spools that Lamson sells with their reels. On one, I just had them put a Rio Gold 3wt WF line, for my traditional-like Evening Hole/Day Use Area fishing. One of the other spools I had them put extra backing, figuring I would just add my 30', mostly Maxima Chameleon leader (you know what I mean) straight to the backing. But when I started making it all up, I chickened out. It just seems to weird tying my leader straight to backing (This probably shows I'm not a true euro-nymph afficionado, or something.) So, chickening out on that, I took the spool with the normal amount of backing and tied most of a spool of 20 lb red Amnesia to that. To that I added my long leader.
Now, the leader. I had been using to tightline one I had made up with a MaxCham 20 lb butt, followed by a 15 lb section, then an 8 lb, then sighter. This leader turns over quite nicely. The problem is, beyond about 15 feet from the reel, it tends to sag just enough to pull my nymphs out of the drift. So, I have to learn to fish a micro-Euro-leader. I'm going to do it in stages. These things are supposed to provide great drifts, but be quite difficult to cast. I'm starting with a compromise, to get used to it. I made up:
25' MC 15lb; 4' MC 8lb; 20" Amnesia green 6lb; 18" Siman 3x sighter; tippet ring; tippet and flies.
I first made it with longer sighter-type sections, but had so much difficulty casting, I looked up some formulas. They all used shorter sighter sections, so I redid that. Well, I also watched some video on tuck casting. I was doing things wrong. I got back out and practiced some more just at dusk. I don't know what change made the difference, but I was casting much better.
Plan to try it out over Labor Day. Wish me luck!
But my whole rig, after the backing, is a guess. Like, I put the 150 of 20 lb Amnesia on, umm, I'm not sure why! Let me know if you think I've done it wrong.
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Post by gui on Aug 16, 2022 10:18:03 GMT -6
Congrats on the new rod Jonbo!
I'm not an expert on the matter, but I don't think that you're doing anything wrong except if you want to follow competition rules. Without fly line, your setup is essentially very similar to the "mono rig" that has many reputable advocates, such as Domenick Swentosky at troutbitten.com
It seems that some people like to have a bit of fly line in their hands for the "feel" of it during medium to long drifts, or when using euro-streamers. Some also say that "only mono" is a pain to handle when it rains, I believe. For these folks, having a dedicated euro line on the reel might be adequate. But I guess some other folks don't mind having just mono in their hands...
Personally, I'm in the second category and the fly line on my rig is basically just there to add weight and balance the rod.
We went to Colorado this past week and I tried a new-to-me micro setup with 26' of yellow 18mm Pierre Sempe mono filament material straight from the (euro) fly line to the tippet ring, and Skafars wax on the tippet. I also used my new 10'9" rod and the fly line never came out of the reel. I was struck by the simplicity of the setup, a much increased sensitivity, and the ability to cast & fish much lighter nymphs compared to the 15lb butt leader that I've been using on my 10' rod for the past 3 years or so.
Once again, it seems that it all comes down to personal preferences and experimentations on the river, with no right or wrong!
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Post by jonbo on Aug 16, 2022 12:52:18 GMT -6
Gui, what would that 18 (0.18?) mm Pierre Sempe mono compare to in, say, MaxCham, 8 lb, you think? I like the simplicity in the rig you've devised. I may end up there. I know that Bill was running 30 lb Lazar as his main line. I don't know if I said this, but I'm trying this out mainly because Spillway Creek seems particularly suited to it. I'm looking forward to it with a little trepidation. I didn't really enjoy the so called "euro" method before, but after I finally got used to the casting and wasn't just flopping it around quite so badly, I didn't hate it that bad. I'm really hoping for it to improve my delivery of nymphs to the fish on Spillway. Anyway, I feel committed now (on Spillway). Another thing, do you tuck cast a lot? I've been trying to learn to out in the yard. I think I almost have it.
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Post by jonbo on Aug 16, 2022 12:57:47 GMT -6
Oh yeah, have you seen Dominick's backing sighter over at Troutbitten? It looks pretty slick. A fellow at the NA Flyfishing Forum says that he runs a straight leader like yours, no in-line sighter, then a 7 ft tippet with a backing sighter that he slides up and down, depending. Now, that's some simplicity!
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Post by gui on Aug 16, 2022 17:59:18 GMT -6
My bad, 0.18 mm indeed! Looks like Maxima Chameleon 8lb is 0.01" diameter or 0.254 mm, so about 40% thicker compared to 0.18 mm Pierre Sempe mono, which is listed at 6.1 lb breaking strength it seems. Also, Pierre Sempe material comes in fluorescent colors (it's a sighter material essentially), while MC comes in this almost invisible reddish/brownish color. I might consider that backing sighter. I like Skafars a lot, but that thing is a mess when it's hot outside. I know you can dunk it in the water to harden the wax, but seriously, who has time for that? lol Yeah Jonbo, I try to tuck cast when I can. At least mentally, because I don't know if it looks very tucked in all the time... If you haven't seen this already, this guy on YouTube has some good tips on the euro nymphing tuck cast: www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIdUsRB9ERY and first part of www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPmcAZZmf-0But on this last trip, besides fishing the Arkansas river for maybe 1.5 hour or so, I fished mostly small streams with a lot of overhanging trees or bushes. There, I was basically doing a pendulum cast under the rod, with a bit of a wrist flick at the end. Not very "fly-fishing" pretty, but it worked surprising well with the micro leader, even with smaller beads. The flies would land first and I could control the drift almost right away.
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Post by jonbo on Aug 16, 2022 19:44:41 GMT -6
Wow, that's fine leader, man. Muy micro. It must be great to work with once you have your flies in the water. I think I'm going to be happier once I get some control over the casting. Actually, I have been looking at that guy's videos. Thanks! I don't think I'm quite ready for a micro-leader, though. I need to get that 15 lb MaxCham working up in some Spillway pockets. Over Labor Day!
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Post by turfdawg on Aug 17, 2022 4:29:48 GMT -6
My micro leader is .007 (same size as 4X) so with my fat fingers I have to use the comp fly line. I build it so that when landing the fish I’m still holding fly line. Jonbo is almost correct. The leader I use most often is around 30’ of pink 25lb lazar line to 13lb Cortland yellow then 10lb Cortland tri color. Hopefully it last a long time because I can’t get 25lb lazer line anymore. I would not recommend the size micro leader I use sometimes unless you are fairly advanced in the euro style. Jonbo, just wondering, since you already have a 3wt and wanted more sensitive how come you didn’t get the 2wt instead
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Post by jonbo on Aug 17, 2022 4:57:34 GMT -6
Well, I had once had a Shadow II 3 wt. It's sensitivity was just fine, I thought. I'm not sure now why I wasn't happy. The Recon was rated a good all-around rod. I wanted one that I could tight-line with adequately and fish traditionally with decently. It didn't have to be completely great at either. So I bought the Recon, 3 wt. The Recon actually does almost everything very well. Really it does. I stripped a Pat's in one of the deep holes at Spillway a few weeks ago and hooked a hog. Horsed that girl right in. But the Recon doesn't help me feel where the nymphs are in the column or the take of a trout. It's kind of bad at that. So, I'm still looking for a rod with the feel of the Shadow II, yet can still cast traditional okay. The Shadow X supposedly does everything the SII does, but a little better. I have high hopes! LOL! That, or I just like to chase unicorns. My wife would probably say the latter.
Actually, if I were to be completely honest with myself, we give me a small weekly allowance to buy crap with like cokes at RoadMart. I saved it all for like, 3 years. Finally, though, it burned a hole in my pocket. But, to answer your question more directly, Bill, I thought with the 3 wt I could fish traditional-style at the Evening Hole better than with a 2 wt. Am I asking a lot?! Am I asking a lot?!
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Post by dannys on Aug 17, 2022 5:57:22 GMT -6
No Jonbo-- you are not asking for too much--just might not be technology and rod makers don't want that--bites into sales. Seriously, though, I fish only grass and old fiberglass. While some tapers (grass) or models (glass) are better than others for certain types of fishing, I find they can generally do everything I have asked out of them. Granted, might need a longer one for this or that, especially Euro (which I have never tried), but I have been very happy with them and have quite a few--though old Fenwicks FF 79/FF 75-4) are my favorite. The price of old glass was also a factor when I started buying them; then the feel of them made me a believer. That said, they have gone up considerably in the last couple years (supply and demand or just good ol' inflation?)
I wish you luck in your search!
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Post by turfdawg on Aug 17, 2022 15:33:20 GMT -6
This is just my opinion so it doesn’t mean much at all. To me the more specialized a rod is at something then it’s going to be less in another area. It’s been my observation that some euro rods are more sensitive than others and also varies by length on the same series. However every time I have tried the same rods, say T&T, the 2 weights are always more sensitive than the 3 weights. Since you liked the Shadow II I bet you will really like the Shadow X. Just because I like one thing someone else may hate it. We all just have to find out what we like. Oh BTW, you are very brave for going to the park on Labor Day weekend.
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Post by jonbo on Aug 17, 2022 16:33:17 GMT -6
Well, Regina makes our reservations and all months in advance. So it was scheduled. I'll probably hit Spillway a couple of times with the new rig, is all. Surely I can find a pocket no one else is fishing (kayaking, tubing, swimming, throwing rocks)! Thanks, Dannys! I have high hopes! Yeah, the SII and the Recon were both of them nearly do it all rods. If this one doesn't suit me, I'd better quit looking for that unicorn. Gets expensive. Like I said upthread, I'm good at saving a dollar here and there until I have a bunch, even if it takes a long time, but it finally burns a hole in me pocket! That may be what most of this is about, to be honest.
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Post by FlyAndStream on Aug 17, 2022 20:53:16 GMT -6
Y'all are at this (hashing out mono rigs) again? 😆 It's been a minute amigos 🤙
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Post by jonbo on Aug 18, 2022 11:39:47 GMT -6
Hey, I bought a rod and the euro-experiment is back on! Hadn't you heard?
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Post by gui on Aug 18, 2022 14:19:16 GMT -6
That's right! Jonbo and the mono rigs are keeping this thing alive!
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Post by golferjeff on Sept 12, 2022 21:49:30 GMT -6
I haven't fished in 2.5 months..... so I live vicariously thru y'all on here!
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Post by hoss on Sept 13, 2022 14:04:45 GMT -6
I have one question as I do not understand all this Euro business (perhaps more related to the mono rig). Are you using the line to carry the fly or are using the weight of the fly to cast? So the mono rig, if I understand correctly, you use the 20 lb leader like you would fly line to carry the fly. Thanks!
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Post by jonbo on Sept 13, 2022 18:51:31 GMT -6
I have one question as I do not understand all this Euro business (perhaps more related to the mono rig). Are you using the line to carry the fly or are using the weight of the fly to cast? So the mono rig, if I understand correctly, you use the 20 lb leader like you would fly line to carry the fly. Thanks! It seems to me when casting the mono rig that it's the fly carrying the energy, at least mostly, but I'm not too positive. I'm basically using it on Spillway to try to get nymphs to the trout in pocket water more effectively. Otherwise, I find traditional style fly fishing more of a pleasure.
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Post by turfdawg on Sept 14, 2022 4:46:11 GMT -6
I have one question as I do not understand all this Euro business (perhaps more related to the mono rig). Are you using the line to carry the fly or are using the weight of the fly to cast? So the mono rig, if I understand correctly, you use the 20 lb leader like you would fly line to carry the fly. Thanks! That depends. To me a mono rig is different than “euro style “. An “euro style “ has a leader that is around 20’ (there are length rules for competition) attached to a fly line. A mono rig is all mono and no fly line. Casting also depends on the rig size. Say if you are using 20lb maxima chameleon it has the stiffness and weight to actually cast (has it’s limits of course on fly size and distance just like different wt rods and lines). The smaller size you go the less you will be able to cast the line and start casting the weight of the flies. When using say the 20lb maxima a standard 3, 4 or maybe 5wt rod will cast it pretty good. When using the smaller size you really start to need a more “euro style “ rod. I know this changes for everyone but the rig I use the most is pretty much a mono rig with 25lb lazar line for the “butt” section then to about 3’ of 14lb cortland yellow then about 2’ of 10lb cortland tri color then tippet ring. With that I can “euro”, put on an indicator, float the sighter, dry dropper or small dry fly. My main “euro” style is about 13’ of .007 (4X)to 2’ of .007 (4X) cortland tri color to my 6X or 7X tippet. I just fish that to more “technical “ fish in certain water types. My opinion is if you are fishing weight and indicators 35’ or closer a mono rig is better than fly line because you can pretty much keep everything off of the water and don’t have to mend. Just my thinking
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Post by Prosperflyfisher on Sept 15, 2022 20:46:11 GMT -6
Just when I start thinking I know a lot about fly fishing, I read a thread like this and realize there is so much more to learn. I love it though.
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Post by turfdawg on Sept 16, 2022 8:00:45 GMT -6
Just when I start thinking I know a lot about fly fishing, I read a thread like this and realize there is so much more to learn. I love it though. One of the nicer things about fly fishing, and there are many, is you can make it as cheap and easy as you wish or as expensive and complicated as you want while always learning
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Post by hoss on Sept 16, 2022 11:24:22 GMT -6
I have one question as I do not understand all this Euro business (perhaps more related to the mono rig). Are you using the line to carry the fly or are using the weight of the fly to cast? So the mono rig, if I understand correctly, you use the 20 lb leader like you would fly line to carry the fly. Thanks! It seems to me when casting the mono rig that it's the fly carrying the energy, at least mostly, but I'm not too positive. I'm basically using it on Spillway to try to get nymphs to the trout in pocket water more effectively. Otherwise, I find traditional style fly fishing more of a pleasure. Yeah, just throwing a 5 weight WF line is the way to go for me and I use this for 90% of my fishing. As I obsess about it, if I can develop either a euro or mono style approach to my limited repertoire, all the better.
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Post by jonbo on Sept 19, 2022 5:45:59 GMT -6
I'm mainly trying to do it for places like Spillway Creek with faster water and pockets. I still much prefer the traditional methods for EH and other somewhat slower areas.
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