Euro/indicator nymphing

[troutbum54]

I've finally decided to pass on my 9' 5wt now that my girlfriend is wanting to start fly fishing with me more, she's a lot faster learner than I was starting out, and I'm about to invest in a 10' 4wt BVK to use mainly for nymphing, both euro and indicator, so that I can have a little more reach to cover the water more thoroughly than I normally could with a shorter rod and not kill my shoulder. I will have the Rio Euro nymph line (I've heard great things) on one spool and some Rio WF4F on the other spool so that I can change with the conditions a little easier. I was wondering if any of you guys had any ideas on some leaders lengths and sizes that I could tie up for the LMFR and LIR or solid nymph combos for the European techniques (mainly Czech but maybe some French). The Rio Euro nymph line already has an indicator as its tip so I'll just be having a fluorocarbon leader coming off that without the normal indicator line.

[dainw]

Haven't really tried to the euro set up myself, but I've looked into it a little bit. I know there are a few guys on here that fish that set up almost exlcusively. Here are a couple links that might be a good starting point for you.

www.bluequillangler.com/Knowledge/Constructing-a-Czech-Nymphing-Leader_2

www.hatchmag.com/articles/building-simple-euro-style-tight-line-nymphing-leader/7713451

Hope that helps and someone more knowledgeable than myself chimes in. You might also check out George Daniel's book, Dynamic Nymphing if you haven't already, he breaks down leader set up for just about every type of nymphing you'd want to do.

[troutbum54]

I got dynamic nymphing a few months back, George also has YouTube videos illustrating some of the main concepts, but I was mainly concerned with the size of line to use at the base of the leader since the Rio Euro Nymph line is in the 0wt-000wt range and a good length to make the leader factoring in the indicator tip of the fly line. I will be using tippet rings at the end of the leader to make it a little more neat while using a 2 fly rig instead of tying a triple surgeons knot with a long tag end for the dropper. I have some size 16 comp jig hooks that I'm waiting for the tungsten beads to arrive so I can start tying and I'm about to get some size 12 comp jig hooks and size 14 comp scud hooks, both with tungsten beads, and would like some solid patterns that have produced on the LMFR to tie on those.

[jonbo]

I wish I could help you. I've tried to fool with euro-nymphing a little, but haven't gotten anywhere. I bought an 18 ft french leader from Blue Quill Angler. Occasionally I'll put it on MY 10 ft BVK (which is great on Spillway, BTW) and lead it through some pockets. It sort of works pretty well, I've caught a few that way, but I have no skill. I mainly use it when "euro-nymphing" in order to keep all the line on the reel so it won't sag in the guides. That's all the further I've gotten with it. Mostly I bobber-nymph. There's a kid who comes on here named Evan. I think he actually knows some stuff. Hopefully he'll chime in.

[Evan Vanek]

For my leader rig I use chameleon maxima line in 12 lb. I go straight 12 all the way down to my sighter which is a triple sighted sighter. The reason I go straight 12 lb is because the flies is what straightens out the leader and shoots it out in the riv. I usually go with 20 ft leader because I throw a 10" 3 wt. I think the line you have is the rio euro nymh line from the description, you might not want to hear this but I've had that line and it frayed all the way down to the core. A line that is better and I have had no problem with is cortland heron blue line. Lastly it's good that your doing sz 12,14,16,18 because you will rarely ever go bigger or smaller on the LMF or anywhere. My teammates on Team USA have been doing different stuff with our leaders such as letting it float on the surface with it greased and watching the leader stop or it dart forward, this is good for spillway or in Zll because the water is much bigger and you won't spook as many fish. Hope you found this somewhat informational.

[mirvc17]

Evan,

Glad to hear you made the USA Youth Fly Fishing Team--that is an awesome achievement. Best of luck to you in that endeavor. Please keep us little folk in the loop on what's happening in your competitions. Now that you're on there, I'll try to follow competitions more online.

I'll be honest and say I haven't used a Euro nymph -style leader in a while (mainly due to the type of water I've been fishing the last few trips), but I also keep a couple with me. I have two leaders (one's a 12' and one's a 16' ) that are made by Steve Parrot (before Umpqua started producing leaders under his name).

I have two leaders I constructed myself that are a slightly different formula. Both are ~13.5' in length. I think they work well with your average 9' rod. Here's the formula:

7.5' 3X tapered leader (I prefer Rio Powerflex / Powerflex Plus) blood knotted to ...
3' of Umpqua 3x bi-color sighter material (.008" / 8.5 lb) ...with a 2mm tippet ring attached via clinch knot...
3' of 5X tippet attached to point fly...
Desired length of dropper tippet attached to 2nd fly.

The tippet can be changed based on conditions.

[golferjeff]

You technicians amaze me. Give me a bobber and 5x and a stonefly..... Or just a size 12 stimmy with a caddis dropper.

[brandon]

Evan....forgive my ignorance but what is your sighter? And what is between that and the fly?

[Evan Vanek]

Your sighter is a colored piece of your leader basically, you can buy it from umpqua. And between that and your flies is your Tippet. Leader-sighter-Tippet-fly.

[brandon]

I see umpqua bicolored indicator tippit....i assume that is what you are referring to? How do you attach to the 12 lb line above and the tippit below.....nail knot, loop to loop...? Also, about what length is the sighter? This is a lot of questions and im sure you worked hard to figure all this out......so i understand if you would rather not go into detail on your set up. Perhaps there is a book i could read?

[mirvc17]

Brandon,

I would make a Perfection Loop in the 12 lb mono and attach that to the loop on your fly line (unless you're using an old line that doesn't have a welded loop). If it doesn't, you can make your own--I've done it before and it's strong. There's a video on Gink and Gasoline I think that shows how.

Then, use a blood knot to attach the sighter to the 12 lb mono. After the sighter, attach a tippet ring (if desired). The tippet ring will let you remove/add tippet easier and not eat into your sighter if you have to tie on a different piece of tippet.

The Umpqua sighter material is bi-color...the color changes every 1.5 feet I believe. Rio's bi-color tippet changes every 12 inches. Dain's post above has a couple of descriptions that have the sighter length in it--but they are saying like 14" of sighter material, which may not be long enough depending on how long your leader is. More of that sighter above water is a good thing so you can see the leader. Plus if you have to go deeper--well, you should add more tippet, but you could potentially let some of your sighter go under water but still get down to the fish without your entire sighter going under... just my opinion.

[brandon]

Thanks mirvc17 and evan.....ill read up on this

[jonbo]

I've kind of figured out how to put the tackle together at least somewhat resembling what Mirv and Evan do, I think. What I haven't figured out is what to do with it after that. I always end up after awhile like Jeff, going back to a bobber or dry/dropper. One thing that frustrates me is that I can't cast the 16 ft euro-leader I bought from BQA, at all. I just kind of flop it around like it's a cat toy on a stick. Maybe that's how you're supposed to. Donno. My stick is a 10ft TFO BVD. Maybe it's too fast action, or maybe my casting skills lack. I kind of like Evan's idea of greasing up the leader and watching for the floating tip to move. I think you'd probably want it greased to the end of the sighter. Note: ..."think"... =totally guessing.

BTW, congratulations, Evan, on making the USA team!

[mirvc17]

Jonbo,

You're not really supposed to "cast" these kinds of leaders. They don't cast well and some formulas, if you cast them you're asking for tangles. Most of them you "lob" with a fairly open loop. You can let the water take the flies downstream and then use water tension to lob them upstream of your target. FIPS Mouche rules dictate leaders which don't allow floating (bobbers/yarn) or sinking devices (split shot). They are very specific on fly dimensions, materials, hooks, sizes, etc. Heavily weighted flies can help with the lobbing process.

Perhaps the biggest disadvantage of Euro styles of nymphing and/or high sticking methods is that YOU must get fairly close to your target. Depending on the water, this can be impractical or impossible. Fly fisherman generally enjoy casting to their targets--and one of the reasons fly fishing is fun.

ARTICLE 28: COMPETITION LEADERS
28.1. A single monofilament or poly leader, tippet included, may be used, with a maximum total length of twice the length of the rod used.
28.2. Leaders may be knotted or knotless, and continuously tapered down or level. A single loop of max. 10 cm length may only be used to connect a leader to a fly line. If the leader is knotted, the minimum distance between the knots is 30 cm, hanging freely.
28.3. Neither sinking nor floating devices may be added to the leader
28.4. A maximum of 3 micro rings (leader rings) of a maximum outer diameter of 3 mm can be used. A maximum of 3 knots can be joined at a micro ring, they are considered as 1 knot (tbc).
28.5. Droppers may only be used to attach flies whenever more than 1 fly is used by the competitor during that competition.

[jonbo]

Well I'll probably keep playing with it every now and then when I'm searching on Spillway for that 1st nice fish since the flooding of '15.

[Evan Vanek]

It's not effective at all to euro Z2. The water is very large, what I will typically do is either single dry in shallow water and even deep and get success or dry-dropper-dropper 2 size 16s or 14 with cortland trout finesse fly line. Can easily lay out a 20 ft leader smooothly on the water and is a great line. When floating your sighter don't put on 2 flies, put on only one because if you put too much weight it will sink. And thank Jonbo! Would love to get out with you or anyone else that has questions about this "Czech" or American nymhing stuff. BTW, we just took silver at the world championship in Spain this week, somewhat disappointed due to we won 3 straight gold medals the past 3 years but the guys grinded this one out in extremely tough conditions and making an amazing comeback.

[brandon]

I ordered some chameleon 12lb line and sighter tippit today. I will make up some leaders soon. Thanks for all the info

[mattmar10]

This might be a stupid question, but can you effectively Euro-nymph slower/deeper water... i.e., pools that have current, but where the water isn't moving all that fast? It seems most of the videos I've seen or articles I've read have used this technique more in shallow runs/seams.

[troutbum54]

I believe that you can but most people euro nymph faster water because of the struggle to have a natural drift with the top of the water moving faster than the water near the bottom. I think the technique could be used in slower/deeper pools, but that's where indicators really shine

[jonbo]

Oh! I just saw your post, Evan. Congratulations on taking the silver medal in the world fly-fishing championships! You guys have a lot to be proud of, and we fellow LMF enthusiasts are proud of you!

[Evan Vanek]

For most of the part you can effectively cast up about 60 feet with the leader... No it's not the best thing to do but sometimes you will. And yes you can absolutely fish deeper water with it. Just get your flies deep and your drift will be slower. Lastly sometimes natural drift is key but about half of the time the fish don't give a crap, they are stocked fish for the most part in the LMF so dragging your flies will sometimes trigger the fish to eat. I will be up next weekend fishing so if you would like to get some tips on hand on hand euro nymhing instruction I would be glad to do so.

[troutbum54]

I noticed you used a syndicate 10ft 3wt but have you had any experience with the 10ft 2wt syndicate? I was considering getting that for normal applications since big fish are few and far between in Blue and the LIR.

[Evan Vanek]

No I don't use a syndicate... I've tested them and seen if I like them but I never use them for legit fishing. Go with the new sage esn, or look into the cortland rods. Much more stiff and sturdy and you can pump out line if needed. Just my opinion. I only use a 10 2 in places know for small fish but I usually throw a 10 3 because I like to flip the fish into my net even if it's large.

[fishortie]

Evan,

How do you decide how long your tippet is before your fly?  Also when you fish tandem on a euro rig how much space is between the flies?  I have caught fish Euro nymphing, but I feel like some of it is just luck.  I think my set up is off so any help would be much appreciated!!  Thanks in advance!!

[Evan Vanek]

For your first question, I do 20 inches between flies. Typically from my sighter to my first fly I will run 3 ft, then after my dropper I run 20 inches to my last fly.