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Post by okieman71 on Dec 3, 2016 8:42:18 GMT -6
Does anyone know if they were put in the river yesterday???
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Post by Aaron on Dec 3, 2016 11:01:00 GMT -6
They did. Around 1:30 pm. We may be seeing fry all over the place in short time!
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Post by okieman71 on Dec 3, 2016 11:32:47 GMT -6
Did they put any in the water that runs through the cypress trees in EH area??
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Post by Aaron on Dec 3, 2016 16:23:20 GMT -6
Yes, if you see a block in the water, that is one of the locations. Please watch out for them and dont move them. They are also in different locations in the Red Zone. No blue zone boxes from what I am hearing, for good reason. I think I heard 10,000 eggs. Good luck little dudes!
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Post by okieman71 on Dec 3, 2016 17:07:25 GMT -6
Great news. The run through the Cypress will be great protection and shouldn't catch too much traffic.
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Post by tsfarling on Dec 3, 2016 21:11:11 GMT -6
I'll be down there next weekend to pull them out! Can't wait to see what they produce!
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Post by okieman71 on Dec 3, 2016 23:10:52 GMT -6
Wow. I didn't realize they came out so quickly. Hey Tyler, how long before the eggs hatch(for lack of knowing the proper term) or whatever they do??
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Post by golferjeff on Dec 4, 2016 0:34:42 GMT -6
I am going to tie some size 34 bugs and catch the little guys! Seriously - vibert boxes are great news. It's a win for the Browns... and that hasn't been heard in Cleveland at all this year. The more Browns we can get to hatch or plant, the better the fishery will be. They seem to have a lot more survival instinct than rainbows. Also, the regs protect them. They also do better in higher temperature water.
Wouldn't that be a dream scenario? Stocker rainbows for the catch and eat crowd and wild/wild* Browns for the rest of us. One can dream.......
That's it, I am heading up next weekend. I gotta meet this Tyler kid....
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Post by okieman71 on Dec 4, 2016 7:30:43 GMT -6
The Browns do make a lot of sense. I assume the reason they do not stock more browns is due to expense. Would that be it or are they just hard to find. I know we have done some swaps for Brown trout from up north, Montana or Wyoming I believe. I am glad that all of the vibert boxes were put in the red zone. More Browns would be a great thing.
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Post by dainw on Dec 4, 2016 9:10:16 GMT -6
Just curious here but do we have any idea what the success rate of the vibert box program is in the LMF? What would be the advantage of planting vibert boxes vs. just stocking another load of brown trout? Is it a cost thing? I've always heard that brown trout won't spawn in a river that they weren't born in, but not sure if that's true or not? If so that would make sense as to why we continue this program, assuming we are trying to get Browns to spawn in the LMF. As far as wild fish go, we do know that there are wild rainbows in the LMF, but what about Browns? Do we have any brown trout reproduction in the river or are we able to say with any certainty that some of the brown trout being caught were actually born in the river?
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Post by golferjeff on Dec 4, 2016 10:46:18 GMT -6
90% of viberts hatch..... how many make it to juvenile or adult is very hard to tell.
The browns do spawn, some successfully, but mostly in vain. I don't think there have been any studies past the vibert boxes success rate.
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Post by tsfarling on Dec 4, 2016 17:58:51 GMT -6
Hatch is the correct term. They go from eyed yolk, to alevins (Ale-vins), hatch into parr and emerge. After a few weeks and some size gain, they are considered fry. This process can take anywhere from 5-10 days in the wild. Vibert box studies show environmental variables can play a role in delays or speeding the process up. Wow. I didn't realize they came out so quickly. Hey Tyler, how long before the eggs hatch(for lack of knowing the proper term) or whatever they do?? SaveSaveSaveSave
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Post by tsfarling on Dec 4, 2016 18:05:39 GMT -6
The response that was given about we really don't know is pretty accurate. 90-95% of the eggs maybe gone but how many were eaten, floated downstream, or just died compared to what survived is an interesting question. It is estimated that some 34-54% of eggs are successfully hatched and survive. Not bad. There is a method of tracking this with fry traps that I think the foundation might give a go at next year. Trout fry have above 80% successful rate of surviving once they reach around 6 centimeters. I personally believe that there are wild brown trout in the river due to seeing 6-7" browns in Spillway creek this year. They most likely survived they flooding by moving up into tributaries. They'll remember those tribs and hopefully spawn in them someday. Just curious here but do we have any idea what the success rate of the vibert box program is in the LMF? What would be the advantage of planting vibert boxes vs. just stocking another load of brown trout? Is it a cost thing? I've always heard that brown trout won't spawn in a river that they weren't born in, but not sure if that's true or not? If so that would make sense as to why we continue this program, assuming we are trying to get Browns to spawn in the LMF. As far as wild fish go, we do know that there are wild rainbows in the LMF, but what about Browns? Do we have any brown trout reproduction in the river or are we able to say with any certainty that some of the brown trout being caught were actually born in the river? SaveSave
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Post by tsfarling on Dec 4, 2016 19:29:14 GMT -6
Trout in general are getting pretty expensive. This last batch of browns came from a trade for green sunfish with a hatchery in Montana. That deal may happen again is kind of what it sounded like but I don't know how many more times or when. Browns are actually less temperature tolerant than the bows that the LMF currently gets but again, temperatures in zone 1 never reached near the lethal limits for trout in general so putting them in EH is an excellent idea. The Browns do make a lot of sense. I assume the reason they do not stock more browns is due to expense. Would that be it or are they just hard to find. I know we have done some swaps for Brown trout from up north, Montana or Wyoming I believe. I am glad that all of the vibert boxes were put in the red zone. More Browns would be a great thing. SaveSave
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Post by mirvc17 on Dec 4, 2016 20:15:05 GMT -6
Tyler is that case of specific rainbows in the LMF and not the norm? I thought that browns in general were more tolerant of warmer temperatures compared to rainbows. Is that some kind genetic engineering going on or something?
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Post by dainw on Dec 4, 2016 20:28:37 GMT -6
I've also caught 6-7" browns in the lower Illinois River as well, and I think it's pretty safe to assume there aren't any wild browns there. I'm not saying that the small browns in spillway aren't wild necessarily, just that I think when browns do get stocked they let tend to be a little smaller than when the rainbows get stocked, at least that was the case in the lower Illinois two winters ago. 6 inch browns all over the place right after a brown trout stocking.
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Post by golferjeff on Dec 4, 2016 20:29:43 GMT -6
I know it has something to do with hatchery water temps.... they are kept a little warmer for the stocker rainbows I think. Wild browns are more tolerant than wild rainbows for sure. Just look at cold tailwater fisheries in the rockies - browns are always found further downstream in less quality water.
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Post by jonbo on Dec 4, 2016 20:59:31 GMT -6
The browns do spawn, some successfully, but mostly in vain. I don't think there have been any studies past the vibert boxes success rate. How is it that browns don't spawn successfully in the LMF? Isn't that what they're trying to achieve with the Vibert box egg hatchings, a wild, self-reproducing population?
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Post by dainw on Dec 4, 2016 23:32:00 GMT -6
I think it was Jesse King that told me browns don't spawn in a river unless they are born in that river. Not sure if that's true or not? If so would mean the reason we don't see many brown trout spawning is because not many of the vibert planters actually survive long enough to reach sexual maturity. In the absence of any hard data one way or the other, that explanation seems to make sense, but then again I'm no biologist.
Even if the browns needing to be born in the river to spawn thing isn't true, I think it's just more difficult to get brown trout to spawn in this part of the country, for whatever the reason. Take Missouri for example. I think there are like 8 or 9 streams up there that have documented rainbow reproduction, if not self sustaining populations, and only one stream that has documented brown reproduction, even though many of those streams have both species of trout.
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Post by tsfarling on Dec 5, 2016 7:30:06 GMT -6
In the case of the LMFR, juvenile browns had not been stocked above the Old Park Dam in over two years until a couple weeks ago. These juveniles were caught in Spillway several months ago above the 10' waterfall so that alone makes them isolated from anything that ODWC has done in the past two years. They are too small to be from anything stocked over two years ago and they are just the right size to have been spawned just a few months before the last flood. My best guess is that they were naturally spawned. They were downstream of where wild juvenile brown fry had been spotted in the hundreds in the past. After surveying Spillway three weeks ago, I can safely say that there is enough substrate in the flatter areas for spawning to occur and billions of black fly larvae to subsist on. I've also caught 6-7" browns in the lower Illinois River as well, and I think it's pretty safe to assume there aren't any wild browns there. I'm not saying that the small browns in spillway aren't wild necessarily, just that I think when browns do get stocked they let tend to be a little smaller than when the rainbows get stocked, at least that was the case in the lower Illinois two winters ago. 6 inch browns all over the place right after a brown trout stocking. SaveSave
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Post by tsfarling on Dec 5, 2016 7:31:53 GMT -6
The rainbows in the LMFR are bred to be more temperature tolerant, however, in lab studies, a rainbow trout survives after browns do by a few degrees celsius. Tyler is that case of specific rainbows in the LMF and not the norm? I thought that browns in general were more tolerant of warmer temperatures compared to rainbows. Is that some kind genetic engineering going on or something? SaveSave
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Post by tsfarling on Dec 5, 2016 7:42:05 GMT -6
The more browns that get put in, the better chance you have of reproduction occurring. The current population size of spawning adults is probably pretty small considering the low amount of stockings that have occurred. When they do spawn, you would only see small populations of juveniles, definitely not enough to sustain an adult population long-term. The browns do spawn, some successfully, but mostly in vain. I don't think there have been any studies past the vibert boxes success rate. How is it that browns don't spawn successfully in the LMF? Isn't that what they're trying to achieve with the Vibert box egg hatchings, a wild, self-reproducing population? SaveSave
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Post by jonbo on Dec 5, 2016 11:32:43 GMT -6
Thanks Tyler. There've been interesting topics the past week. Your input has been very informative and helpful. I (and others) would love to see a self-sustaining population of both rainbow and brown trout. I still think that if the PTB are interested in that as well that they'll have to consider lowering the catch limit a little bit, say to 4 for a couple of seasons, and see if that makes a difference. My guess is that it would.
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Post by tsfarling on Dec 5, 2016 17:35:45 GMT -6
I would say that 4 would be a good start. Eventually though, they might have to look at protecting the smaller fish that can also add to recruitment in the river. It can't just be the adults that need to be protected if you want a wild population. It will be interesting to see how the fishery changes over the next few years.
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Post by dainw on Dec 5, 2016 21:43:58 GMT -6
Tyler can you offer any insight as to why rainbows seem to be more successful spawning in the river than Browns? I know technically Browns are more closely related to Atlantic salmon than they are rainbows but what does that mean in terms of ability to spawn in the LMF? Do they prefer a different type of habitat than rainbows? Different temperature range, dissolved oxygen, etc? Is there any truth to the statement that Browns have to be born in a river to actually spawn there or is that just a myth? It seems like the rainbows have done better than the Browns but is that just because Browns represent such a disproportionately smaller portion of the overall population?
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