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Post by hankinsfly on Mar 11, 2017 23:59:39 GMT -6
I found this old AGFC article. Interesting article and I like midging at Beaver tailwater. I post this here though because it made me think of catch and release ethic relative to bait fishers. Wait. We don't have that in Oklahoma. Bait fishers' ethic generally more closely resembles the same as what drove American bison to near extinction and has killed off other species such as the Miriam's elk from the Wichita Mountains. Wolves, bears, elk, lost specie of turkey roamed the Great Plains. The thinking that precludes keeping more than one's bag limit is simply none other than greed. I admit it- I bird hunt, I crappie fish, and the thrill of the next bite, the next downed bird, and the perceived satisfaction of a full stringer or bird vest has been hard to surpass. This was mostly when I was immature and younger and didn't really think beyond the present. The bait fishermen who got fined at the LMF as recently posted here on the board are representative of what I believe is the general ethic of bait fishers in Oklahoma. This near-sighted, greedy thinking does not care about growing better trout tomorrow, it just wants to fill its insatiable gut today. It doesn't care about conservation, although the State forces their license dollars into some measure of conservation. The AGFC article states bait fishers have taken up a catch-and-release ethic as adopted from bass fishing. This must be an Arkansas phenomenon or a contrived perception of the author. Contrary to the article, I hear of similar problems of poaching in the Bull Shoals tailwater as what we see here on the LMF. I have used power bait for trout as a youngster, and you have to keep nearly every trout you catch on power bait because it hooks the trout deeply and it cannot survive. Having grown up hunting and fishing, I have experienced the mindset of having to catch more fish and kill more game than everyone else. Now, just getting out in the water is a success. To me, any fish that makes good sport and puts up a fight is a trophy, whether it be a 25" brown or a 15" rainbow on a 4 weight. Sure, the more fish you catch, the better, but it just doesn't matter as much now if the fishing is a little slower than I would expect. Who cares? I'm not out to fill a stringer or brag about a hundred fish day. I'm out to enjoy my time in that water. How do we promote fishing for fishing's sake rather than for eating' sake? Better yet, how does the bait fisher's ethic change as portrayed in the article? We could have a stellar fishery here. It is a good one, and the river seems to me to have greater diversity of bug life than anywhere on the coldwater sections of the White. Anyway, I could write more, but the article got me to thinking about the mindset of the bait fisher and bag limits. www.gameandfishmag.com/fishing/fishing_trout-fishing_ar_0706_01/
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Post by mirvc17 on Mar 12, 2017 8:52:45 GMT -6
I agree with many of your points, but I don't know if anyone can really say that the general ethic of bait fishers in OK do/want to exceed their daily limits and engage in illegal activity. The guides that are out on the water daily may be able to give the best account of what they perceive is going on at the LMF.
I'm pretty sure there is quite a fair amount of limit exceeding at the Blue River. I've overheard plenty of people say "come on let's go put these in the cooler." I'm willing to bet they came back out and fished more. It's all too easy at the Hughes Crossing area where people walk 100 yards or less back to their camp sites.
About conservation (in OK), I think there is a fair amount of people that just litter and don't care. I see trash all over Medicine Park--empty bait jars, birds nests of line, etc. I pick up whatever I can and toss it. Whenever a bait angler shows any interest or curiosity in fly fishing and talks to me, I always recommend they try it. You can only hope that some will take the plunge and eventually learn more about catch and release.
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Post by paul01 on Mar 12, 2017 13:37:48 GMT -6
Simple litmus test to determine whether poachers are present:
1) No litter on river banks - Nothing to worry about. 2) Litter all over the place - Call game wardens immediately.
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Post by schrederman on Mar 12, 2017 13:44:28 GMT -6
Last time at Beaver, we saw a couple of ice chests that easily had over 50 trout in each... and they were still fishing and adding to each. We spoke to a game warden the next day and he seemed uninterested. He was very interested to see our out-of-state licenses... I've witnessed the same disregard for rules and limits on the LMF.
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Post by greenman on Mar 12, 2017 16:30:27 GMT -6
Gentlemen,
This problem with anglers disregarding the rules and etiquette of fishing are further widespread than just Oklahoma. Being from Texas and traveling all over the lower 48, I have witnessed this almost everywhere I have fished or even just visited. Here in Texas I have a tailwater that I frequent to fish both fly and bait. On numerous occasions I have pulled line from around my ankles that was let by a previous angler. Bait jars, lure packaging, worm containers, styrofoam buckets, food containers and cans and bottles have been left behind even when a dumpster and trash containers are within 200 feet or closer. I am one of those people that smoke. I always (and to wife's dismay) pack out every butt that I pack in. Last weekend I was out after dark and watched two gentlemen pull a black bucket (each man had one) from the shadows of the rocks and walk to their vehicle only to return 10 minutes later with an empty bucket. They did this several time during the 5 hours I was there. They were catching crappie. Bag limits are 25 over 10". I never saw one go back into the water. Local game warden's phone was unable to receive a voice mail at the time. During a different trip to Louisiana, a warden walked up to a few of us fishing and only asked who had the out of state vehicle. I replied it was mine and he proceeded to pull me aside check licence, vehicle and tackle. Not bothering anyone else who was fishing and went on his way. Sometimes you wonder if it is worth the effort to report people. Then you see the few that do get checked and fined and decide, yes it is worth the effort.
So, always try to leave area better than you found it, and always know the local wardens/rangers numbers. Just my little rant.
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Post by hankinsfly on Mar 12, 2017 17:02:48 GMT -6
Yeah, sorry for my rant too. Cold meds and the flu had me a little loopy last night. I don't believe all bait fishers are trashy and greedy, I know some are respectful of the river and others. I do believe most are inclined to leave their trash, and many likely cull fish. Again, the nature of the power bait is the trout get hooked deep and will not survive. Regarding the article, which motivated my rant, I just don't see a renewed catch and release ethic with bait fishers. But, I have never once seen a fly fisher trashing the river. We also need to recognize the culture here- fly fishing is of the minority. Most people in Oklahoma have no access to other people who fly fish or to fly shops. Fly fishing does require a little more money than using the rods and tackle one already has. I think part of the problem is the way the State approaches a trout fishery- it is tailored to people who want to catch and keep their limit of trout. The State has to meet the needs of the majority, and that is people who fish bait.
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Post by mirvc17 on Mar 12, 2017 19:07:44 GMT -6
Hankinsfly,
Agree that bait and catch and release practice are two concepts that are basically fighting against each other. Even if you use a single, barbless hook for bait one of several things will probably happen: Bait will come off the hook easier, trout can steal the bait off the hook easier, and if they take the bait, like you said it usually gets swallowed resulting in a deeply set hook.
Barbless or not, it's tricky enough trying to remove a deep hook. Possible results trying to do so: increased risk of injuring the fish in the process, either by wounding it in the process or keeping it out of the water an extended period of time.
We've all hooked trout deep...I'm not saying that doesn't happen occasionally but it's been my experience that it's rare with flies. Sometimes they've been easy to remove, other times you just have to cut the tippet.
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Post by greenman on Mar 12, 2017 21:28:10 GMT -6
Yeah, sorry for my rant too. Cold meds and the flu had me a little loopy last night. I don't believe all bait fishers are trashy and greedy, I know some are respectful of the river and others. I do believe most are inclined to leave their trash, and many likely cull fish. Again, the nature of the power bait is the trout get hooked deep and will not survive. Regarding the article, which motivated my rant, I just don't see a renewed catch and release ethic with bait fishers. But, I have never once seen a fly fisher trashing the river. We also need to recognize the culture here- fly fishing is of the minority. Most people in Oklahoma have no access to other people who fly fish or to fly shops. Fly fishing does require a little more money than using the rods and tackle one already has. I think part of the problem is the way the State approaches a trout fishery- it is tailored to people who want to catch and keep their limit of trout. The State has to meet the needs of the majority, and that is people who fish bait. I agree that fly fishermen and women are in the minority. There are too few people practicing the catch and release methods that we use. The other problem with Fly Fishing in general is that it is not designed for the masses. It is easier and cheaper to get a rod-reel combo from a major chain store for under $50, a handful of hooks and baits for less than $20 and be ready to catch fish. Most people cannot afford to spend hundreds of dollars on rigs to not keep a fish. Typical setup from Texas Fly Fishing Fest this weekend was around $550 for rod-reel and line. I am guilty of using baits for fishing when I am trying to fish to eat. I practice catch and release as does my family and extended family. This is the way we were taught by out parents and this is what we teach to our kids and grandkids.
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Post by golferjeff on Mar 13, 2017 6:38:40 GMT -6
Go to Colorado - not nearly the same problems as in TX and OK. Very little litter, C&R is the predominant method of fishing, and anglers who do keep fish stick to the regs. Its awesome and its part of the reason why I seem to end up there a few times every year. Even the campgrounds and city stretches are relatively clean. Maybe 420 users are clean freaks?!
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Post by hankinsfly on Mar 13, 2017 8:55:40 GMT -6
Hoping for a Colorado trip this summer, Jeff. No idea where we'll go yet. My sister just took a job in Denver so that might be some time exploring the S. Platte and other area rivers. Free place to stay and I'm gonna pass on the 420- I quit that nonsense 6 years ago! I am going to go in one of the "fly" shops though just to see the spectacle of legalized green butt skunks.
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