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Post by shiner on Nov 23, 2016 11:00:01 GMT -6
Just a call for information, impressions, and random rants
So I have fished the lmf for the better part of 15 years, and have seen lots of changes up there, both as a result of natural and unnatural forces.
Last visit about 6 mos ago was a real eye opener, and I was shocked to see the mid and upper sections of the spillway creek looking like the surface of the moon. I was particularly struck, and awed by the near complete loss of substrate that used to make up the shoreline, the holes, and the "privacy" that used to be those spots up from the cold hole all the way to cardiac hill. I recall on nice weekdays or bad weathe weekends, you could hop from hole to hole, and squint a bit and imagine the river was all yours. I now have to accept the loss of these features, and it is a bit depressing.
It seems to me that over the last 5 years, there has been a concentrating of fly fishers in the evening hole region, and a concentration of forum chat traffic regarding issues affecting this general vicinity. I have always disliked the evening hole for the simple reason of bodies on the water. A slow cruise over the bridge at the end of the evening and a glance upstream at 10-20 people always frustrates me, and makes me not want to get out of the car. Now with the destruction due to the flood, this concentration has only worsened.
Please don't get me wring, i am very happy that the foundation is making headway with reconstruction. I just am frustrated that all the work is focused on that area, which rather circuitously leads to my question for discussion and debate:
What about restoration of the mid and upper reaches of the creek??? I have no doubt that the bare bedrock bends with exposed rock are not a priority to the LMFF, as the majority of the fly fishermen seem satisfied standing shoulder to shoulder in the evening hole(I know a bit of an exaggeration, burg that's what it seems like to Me)
I wonder if the upper bends are even "reconstructable", as most of the riverbed substrate has been scrubbed. I can't imagine that there is a healthy active bug population up there. I noted very little sandy silt, or plant matter that is crucial to the insects life cycles.
I supposed that the stocking trucks were continuing to dump fish into the cold hole region up past the bluffs, but would have a very difficult time accessing the mid and upper creek as the path on river left was mostly scrubbed. I was told that the roads were in the process of being rebuilt, but it would seem difficult to create a road surface reliable enough to get a truck up there.
I'd like to think thatI know zone 2 well, but through all my years of scouting and hunting, I have only found 3 holes that hold fish well enough to give the angler confidence that there is a reasonable chance of catching fish. Explorrng the frog water between these holes usually results in frustration, mostly due to not even spotting trout
So as it stands my only hope of having a nice time with plenty of opportunities to catch fish, leaves me with all of the others standing in the cold hole, watching good anglers flounder the water and waiting my turn to jump into the hole they have just left. I think I'm just going to have to chill and accept the situatiin, or stay home till more work gets done "up the creek"
I welcome your comments
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Post by dainw on Nov 23, 2016 12:45:16 GMT -6
Shiner,
Thanks for the comment. It's an interesting opinion and one that I think will probably draw quite a bit of discussion, if not controversy. For what it's worth, here's my two cents.
First of all, I think most of us, on this forum anyway, share the same sentiment that you do about preferring to fish in solitude and like that feeling of having the river all to ourselves. Unfortunately that's just not feasible the way it was, even 5 years ago. The LMF has gotten a lot of publicity in recent years and the secret is out. This is the only really decent year round trout fishery within a 4 hour drive of three major population centers (okc, Dallas, Shreveport). It's gonna draw crowds, especially during the warmer months and on weekends. The way to deal with that is try and fish the river either during the week or when it's cold outside. I get as frustrated as anyone trying to find a spot to shoulder in at the evening hole, but I always have to remind myself that it's no use complaining about a problem for which I'm a part of.
As to the discussion about work being done in the evening hole. I think it's important to remember that this river had two catastrophic floods of the 100 year variety with 6 months of each other. Work had literally just started on the evening hole when the second flood hit. I'm glad to see that work has finally started again, but it'll be a slow process before the river is returned to its former glory, although the initial signs are encouraging. As for the crowding in the two areas, evening hole tends to get crowded, not only because it's a red zone and the fly fishers amass there, but also due to the fact that it's such easy access. My experience with fishing in general, not just trout, but all species, is that the vast majority of fishermen aren't willing to walk very far from the parking lot, so if you're willing to walk a little further, you can usually find some solitude.
As to the new spillway creek, my opinion is that it's now better than ever. The amount of suitable holding water has probably tripled and what we have there now is more akin to a western run off style river with pocket water rather than the spring creek type of feel that it had before. Insect life is actually thriving as I was there last weekend and the caddis were thick. I'd also say if there's anywhere on that river that you're likely to get some alone time, it's spillway creek. I'm sure that of the items on the agenda, improving access for stocking trucks not only on spillway but on the whole river is a high priority. Just give it some time it will get better. I was having this conversation with a friend of mine last night and as much as there is that I wish they would do differently with the LMF, sometimes we lose sight of the fact that we have such a unique fishery in this part of the country at all.
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Post by dlinzy on Nov 23, 2016 16:00:03 GMT -6
I've been up and down the entire length of SWC since the last flood, fishing, watching and trying to figure it out. There's fish all over the creek, but it's not conducive to fly fishing as the drifts are too short and the holes too deep with the swift water just washing everything over the fish. Cardiac hill hole is deep but only fishable from a couple of spots so they get hammered pretty good. Lower Cardiac hill has a drop off pool where the stockers run circles until they're all gone, or they spread across the creek into pockets that aren't reachable sometimes even with chest waders. There are a couple of places down current where the loners hide but they can't hang out for more than a couple of weeks without getting caught. The Falls 100 yards down the creek are really only fishable from the opposite side above the falls. From the falls to the "crossing" there really isn't anything deep enough to keep them around so they end up in the pool below the old road crossing. White/Blue Pipe now starts the Cold Hole Pond with families lining both sides of the bank and removing anything stocked by the second weekend. Cold hole is a bait chunker, bottom fishing set out the poles and drink kinda place. Lost creek is gone Gone Creek and there's Squirrels and Ticks in there. The Bluffs aren't anymore once someone fishes, or throws rocks or swims thru it. Evening hole is a long football field of 12" water in the deep spots with the most educated fish in the state, all 7 of them running and hiding wherever they can. It's anybody's guess as to how deep the 40 ft. hole is or what's in it other than Kayak Pee. Take out the stop logs and everything between the 40 ft. hole and the Fly Shop bridge unfishable and there's no Fish there anyway.
So, leaving Zone 2 the nature lovers, hikers to the narrows Oops someone's already fishing it, or my what a loud horn that is 2 hours out of your day wasted trip.
Zone 3 has a nice point that 1 person can fish, 2 if you take turns and remember the horn as it takes 4 - 6 hours for the water to make it's way thru the windows on Rereg.
The power house chain link fence has been inundated with families and hungry fisherman seeking any place to wet a line with a last hope to catch something, anything I talk to them often, it's sad.
I've been here the past 4 days and have caught less than 20 Trout most 10 - 12 Inches. A couple of Walleye less than 14" 2 Largemouth Bass over 5 lb. a number of Perch and Drum and talked to countless dejected people frustrated they haven't caught, nor seen a fish caught in the past few days.
If they don't generate, and they haven't since Monday 5am - 8am the river can't replenish the spots naturally and there is literally nothing to catch of any size.
I realize this may sound dismal and it's been really bad the past few days so maybe it will get better in a month or so once everyone leaves and the river gets back to a normal daily generation schedule.
As always, your results may differ.
DC
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Post by okieman71 on Nov 23, 2016 20:16:08 GMT -6
LMF just simply doesn't have enough fishable water for the numbers of people that are fishing it these days. That seems to be an unsolvable issue.
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Post by golferjeff on Nov 23, 2016 22:08:13 GMT -6
Restoration = $$, and Oklahoma isn't exactly rolling in OPEC territory there. I think the money that is being spent is being spent in the right area. Evening Hole is easiest access, with some of the best habitat. There isn't much you can do with bedrock anyway. Agree with many, just so many anglers and not enough good water.
If we could just all agree and leave the LMF alone for a few years, it would be a good place to fish in 2020. Good luck getting people to agree with that.
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Post by schrederman on Nov 24, 2016 9:52:10 GMT -6
With all that being said... what about other trout-fishing options in Eastern Oklahoma? Has anyone been to the Lower Illinois below Tenkiller? Is it as nice as the LMF used to be? How about the crowds? I've been to the White below Beaver and it's nice... and nicer if you're willing to hike and wade away from the crowds. And..... how are you guys catching walleye? I'd much rather eat walleye than trout... and saves on the trout fishery, too. One more thing... maybe I'm the Jonah in this situation. I've been looking forward to retiring for some time. I get within a year of it and the floods come... Now I'm retired and the walleye are eating the trout... Aaaaaaaahhhh!!! No hate mail, please. 8^)
Jack
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Post by dlinzy on Nov 24, 2016 21:02:26 GMT -6
We fish at night, or dawn and dusk, dunk Minners in the deep holes or anywhere that looks like it's deep or would hold a fish.
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Post by stephenl on Nov 25, 2016 16:53:57 GMT -6
If BB would charge an entry fee like Tx state parks, There would be more revenue and it would reduce the number of visitors per day. A lot of the so called " bait chunkers " who may be locals, wouldn't come if they had to pay say $4 per person.
Personally I tend to pick days far from holidays and nice weather. Avoid weekends where there is festivals nearby or when schools out. You'll tend to find me there in the dead of winter or the long stretches between holidays. Also Monday through Tuesday is great.
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Post by shiner on Dec 1, 2016 6:39:47 GMT -6
Thanks to all for comments. One further point i'd like to make/discuss. I've always looked at fisherman, and the economy of McCurtain county as an interesting relationship. Although I would fully accept that all of the cabin rentals in the area are NOT fly fishermen (thank god), I usually use the online cabin rental service's websites as a measure of the pulse of the fullness of the park. Ie, sites like beavers bend getaways and beavers bend creative escapes provide a grid with availability of all of their cabins, which i'd estimate to number in the mid hundreds.
Looking at cabin availability in the dead of winter or holidays is not often an accurate measure of the health of the area, but I wonder about the effect of reduced fishing spots and degraded habitat upon the number of visitors to the county, and subsequently the financial health of the county.
I for one don't plan on travelling up there in the near future, so the cabin fee, the steak dinner at abednigo's, the fillups at the stations, the trip to the grocery for beer and forgotten ingredients, my wife's trip to "girls gone wine", stopping in at the flyshop to replace the tippet ring that somehow fell out of my vest, my employment of a guide (for the wife and kids one of the mornings), and my kids pizza fest at "grateful head" will not be happening.
So what i'm getting at is this: If OWDC has to shoulder the burden and cost of reconstruction efforts, should there also be some county involvement financially?? I would guess that the county's tax base is associated more than loosely with the influx of visitors to the area.
I'm sure that many, if not most visitors don't flyfish, but we are probably at least partial contributors to the pot.
Those of you involved in the ODWC, TU's branch up there, and county politics feel free to chime in here. I'd be fascinated to hear your take........
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Post by Aaron on Dec 1, 2016 10:18:12 GMT -6
TU is practically inactive at the moment with the LMFR. That doesn't mean they won't be in the future, or there may be another chapter created dedicated to the LMFR(who knows...). The LMFR foundation is the primary, and quite frankly, the only collective group, along with the ODWC, for the preservation and improvement of the LMFR. Also, the fly fishing numbers and impact to the local area are much higher than what everyone seems to think here on the board. This is a very common misconception that has been argued over the years. Yes, 10 years ago, it was valid. Today, not so much. The numbers and impact have grown every year, and continues in this trend.
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Post by golferjeff on Dec 1, 2016 12:00:10 GMT -6
Needs mentioning - not PC, but true..... the average Fly Fisherman tends to have quite a bit more disposable income than the average park visitor. Denny excluded I am sure there is some study somewhere that shows participation in park activities. It sure seems that park attendance is as high or higher than it ever was. Aaron makes a great point as far as the LMFRF is concerned. They ONLY work with our river, not other waterways. The 89'er TU chapter is pretty non-existent in SE Oklahoma. The LMFRF can use anyone and everyone's support.
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Post by dlinzy on Dec 1, 2016 19:14:47 GMT -6
Hey! Oh wait.... Ok. I spoke with the Park Manager or Commissioner and he said the Park generates over 10M a year with most of it coming from fishing and Trout.
Also have spoken to the County commissioner and he can't even get my road paved with asphalt based on the county being so broke for so long it still ins't cash flow positive.
Lastly, at last count there was over 700 rental cabins on the books that wasn't paying taxes 7 years ago, that means they are new and generating a tremendous amount of income for the state that is going somewhere... DC
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Post by bushdr on Dec 1, 2016 19:59:28 GMT -6
The old guys warned about touting the river and telling everybody on the web about it. They were right.
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Post by jonbo on Dec 1, 2016 20:36:05 GMT -6
Was that the old man in the "Quarter", said that?
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Post by Aaron on Dec 1, 2016 22:15:50 GMT -6
dlinzy, Hey, did the Park guy and the Commissioner give you a break down of where the money was coming from or something? Just didn't get the gist from $10 mil from fishing and trout. Was it from bait cast and fly? Or just one or the other in comparison? I guess I am a little confused on your point, could you clarify? Thanks
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Post by tsfarling on Dec 2, 2016 7:55:55 GMT -6
I do not foresee Spillway creek ever having improvement work done on it by the state other than the bridge being put in at the bottom (which will draw people to just that one spot). I fished spillway a few weekends ago and fished a lot of it! I was able to move bank to bank and fish some great pockets of water. I also tagged along with a few young fly fisherman and watched them pull browns out of Spillway on several occasions one afternoon. Browns that were too small to be stockers. Browns haven't been stocked above OPD for two years so a 7-10" brown in Spillway above the waterfall has to be from a natural population that survive the floods. Survive 52,000 CFS running down Spillway you say? Yep, plenty of tributaries for fish to hide in or they could have possibly already been in them at that time growing up. We've already seen juvenile bows survive in an intermittent stream of off Spillway. As far as what will Spillway look like without renovation? I can already see that every time it rains more gravel is being pushed into the river from the eroded banks or coming down from the many intermittent streams that connect into it. Once some soil washes down onto that bedrock, vegetation will take hold. Its a long process and will probably get some ground vegetation forming in 1-2 years in some spots and longer in others but it is still fishing well for me. You just have to get your mountain goat hooves on and get there unfortunately. One thing spillway has going for it is the proximity to the release of water. The lack of vegetation would normally be a concern for temps there but since the source is so close and its moving on a steep gradient, temps stayed rather cool all summer up there. Give it time, a few big rain falls, quite a few trees are going to fall into the creek, and more gravel will be deposited. If you don't want to wait, then people could start to have serious dicussions of landscaping the crap out of it but it will most likely end up in EH again at some point. It's probably better left where it's at.
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Post by captwoody on Dec 2, 2016 19:57:59 GMT -6
I fished the upper spillway this week and was surprised to see small saplings sprouting of what appeared to be solid rock. I hope they find the nourishment to survive.
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Post by dlinzy on Dec 3, 2016 12:19:40 GMT -6
Aaron, my info. came from the guy in the Ford Superduty OK state truck responsible for the "program" i think his card read fisheries and something. He didn't break it up only that this area was responsible for that 10+MM from fishing and stocking.
denny
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Post by jonbo on Dec 3, 2016 16:07:11 GMT -6
I just don't quite see where enough gravel or "substrate" will come from to replace that removed by the flooding. People have pointed out that SC is now like a western freestone stream. Well, not quite, IMO. Those streams have a lot of smaller rocks and gravel in their base where the current SC has only bare bedrock with endlessly deep seams. The pockets and pools in SC at this time are REALLY deep. In a natural mountain stream the smaller rocks that would fill in those pockets and pools somewhat come from upstream during flood season. SC has a dam upstream. That seems like a problem to me, long term, IF we want it to be more like a mountain stream that's more walkable and fly-fishable. I fantasize dumping a few dozen yards of gravel right in the middle of the stream up at the head of Spillway then turning on the spigots to about 3000fps for about a week and see what happens, but that's just my trout-stream-engineering fantasy.
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Post by Aaron on Dec 3, 2016 16:30:28 GMT -6
jonbo, I think you are right. It's going to take a while to get substantial substrate in the right places, however, just one slide from the sheer cliffs carved from the last floods might do the trick. As long as nobody is in the way. Just hope I'm not fishing there if it does. I'll start a gravel bucket brigade with you if you want! dlinzy, good deal, I'm just curious if they are counting lodging and food with that, and how they figure it. Would be interesting to get their breakdown.
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